The Saxo and 106 turbo / superchargered conversion guide

[Sophia_Bush]

The following is for a turbo conversion, supercharger information can be found later on this thread when Andy K and dboyvts have time to add their experience in.

Right first consider are you going to do this yourself? If not and you just want someone to build it up for you do not read further go to one of the following companies to get it built for you

GMC motorsport
cituning
Manicmotors
Broga Racing
atspeed

Ok now lets get going so you have decided you want to build your self a saxo / 106 with a bit of boost. Few things you will have to consider first before you even think about getting parts for the build.

1) How much power you want? low boost big power etc?
2) Daily drive or weekend warrior?
3) Budget

Now what most people have a problem is £££ this is by no means a cheap project to do if you want it to run properly and look half decent, the easiest way to work out what you need is decide on 1 and 2 then you can see how much it will cost you to get to that power. There is no point in saying oh if I run x psi on x internals how long will it last and what power will I get how long it will last as every conversion will be tailored to each individual.

Lets say you are going for a "basic" low boost conversion say 6 - 8psi what will you need to consider? For this basic conversion you will need to consider the following parts as a minimum

Manifold
turbo
downpipe
oil pressure switch t piece
oil feed
oil return
sump return
intercooler
boost pipes
hoses
bigger injectors (more on this later on)

Now you will think now I have got the parts what do I do about the fuelling side of things and lowering compression? Depending on what your budget is here you have many ways to go about things, to lower compression since this is a basic low boost conversion you are looking at a single 1.9mm mls hg plus an appropriate sized decompression plate (more on forged internals later on).

Fuelling again loads of choices on this from the mf2 sigcon combo, dastek with 4 bigger injectors or full monty standalone.

Now with standalone it has more scope for future mods ie extra boost can be mapped more accurately to take into account temperature changes and adjust fuelling more accurately. Also with standalone depending on what you go for can be mapped by any competent person with relevant experience. With dastek it can control 4 bigger injectors and do alot of things a standalone ecu can but the restrictions in this is that only dastek dealers can map them, they don't help with wiring diagrams and cost the same set amount for mapping every time but if you are going for a set spec and not changing this could be the one you want. Now if you are thinking I can't afford that but I still want the fuelling side sorted so I dont kill my engine then the only other option is the cheapest mf2 5th injector and sigcon this can be mapped on the road by anyone by adjusting the potentiometers but with these units it wont be as accurate as a standalone or even a dastek unit. They will also not be able to adjust the fuelling for changes in weather temperature and will just fuel as previously set.

With fuelling it is important you get the right injectors to suit your spec as I can't say what to get here because as previously stated all specs are differing going by what each person wants and budget. For standalone ECUs much choice to have but typically looking at

OMEX
DTA
Emerald
Predator
Gems
MOTEC
MBE
Megasquirt

Any of the above will do the job fine but again budget features needed will dictate usually what to go for but also consider who is going to map the car and what they prefer

Places to get most of whats on the list above

gmc motorsport
dp engineering netherlands
cituning
speedflow (for oil feed stuff and t pieces)
alisport (boost pipes, intercoolers)
rally design/demon tweeks (for hoses gauges dvs etc, although silicone hoses can be had off sfs, samco, psh direct)
wooser, omega, arrow, acrilite (for pistons rods)
QEP (for turbo cams, rods pistons)
atspeed

If you are savvy and are willing to look for things look on ebay as you can get most of the hoses, pipes and intercooler new for good prices. As for price itself how long is a piece of string? this totally and utterly depends on were you go and how lucky you are.

Now I have covered the basics there are alot more things to think about when going for bigger power turbo spec injectors how much to lower compression by. This will all be covered by people contacted in a previous post that have done or are doing the conversion themselves, the idea of this is to give a more varied look on how to do things.

This is not the thread to be asking what power should I get with x y z, this is just to serve as a guide as to what parts are needed what needs to be considered when doing a conversion etc. Also do a search on what combos there are to run in regards to fuelling/what turbos/boost presure etc this has been covered extensively. Please use the search button for older threads of people who have asked many questions in regards to turbo conversion.

More information will be added to this guide as and when the people pmd have time to put together a post of theiir opinions, sources etc on the the varying conversions about

EDIT - Also please read the following thread after you have finished here very sound advice and nice price guide for a medium spec build

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382703

[Sophia_Bush]

If you are thinking of big power you only have to look at Deans, Shauns and Colins 106 GTis all varying levels of power 300bhp+ thats when you start talking alot more ££££ BE box conversions, Quaife Diffs, forged internals etc all of which will be touched upon later on this guide.

Things like injector size, turbo size, boost pipe size, what forged internals all this will be covered just remember this guide is work in progress as more will be added on by others

[ryanmt]

gems = vems!

[Mathias]

Should be a sticky!!!

[Ste]

Should be a sticky!!!

2nd that, when this is finished it will be cracking.

Heres something you might want to edit into the guide;

This is a list of PICO injectors. IWP042 can be got from the Clio 172/182/192 engines. The guide assumes you have the injectors at 3bar.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e254/Ste_1/picoinjects.jpg

[Sophia_Bush]

lads as said the idea of this guide you guys add whatever you think is needed in your own post so if you feel more points need to be expanded on then post away that was the reason of the pm so we get plenty of views and ideas from different people do the conversion their way.

Ste good info there mate

[blackie_2k5]

good to see this is up, will be a good source of info, my first input would be if you are serious about boosting your car buy this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forced-Induction-Performance-Tuning-H691/dp/1859606911

was reccomended tto me form lads on here a short while ago, im halfway through and its a cracking read, will give you all (or near enough) the info you NEED to know when staring up a project like this, very good book that is set out in lamens terms so athat anyone with some knowledge of car can understand, if you cant understand it your undertaking the wrong project

[ryanmt]

2nd on that book, its a must for any diy-turboer!

[saxmad88]

I would tend to consider anything below 300 @ the flywheel a basic conversion, After this barrier you will nedd to start thinking about gearboxes (Atspeed Racing will be selling be4 conversion kits very soon, pm for more info) and clutches a bit more. You should ALWAYS research what parts you will be placing onto the car so everything is matched and will work and aid other parts of the build. You will need to look at cam profile, compression ratio, turbo size, head work and in order to spec something good.

Running the compression too low will give less real power in the low down revs, this in turn would slow down gas speeds exiting the engine and therefore increase the time it takes to spool the turbo up. Run the compression to high and with a dodgey bit of mapping your engine will detonate! The idea cr to run would be 9:1

Cam profile, this is something that has to be selected carefully on certain specs, Standard cams are pretty good for turbo applications, they provide a nice healthy lump of power in the mid range all the way up to 7600 rpm. However go with a wilder cam and you will start to see more top end gains and potentionally a bit more lag!

Now if your ever thinking about going above and beyond the 400- 450 bhp marker this is where you enter a completely new world. I wont say to much about this as not many people would probably consider it. So if you have any questions post them up or pm me.

[Sophia_Bush]

pics of oil return in that thread

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264478

8v adapter manifold setup, 8v cituning setup and 16v cituning setup reference pictures thread

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3768244#post3768244

[Sophia_Bush]

Turbo Oil Feed Guide

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265434

[pjw]

How does the 5th injector thing work then?

What can actually be achieved under standard management? (ie with the 5th injector setup above, is it just plug and play?)


ps also, where would you fit the oil cooler? in between the block and turbo supply?

Thanks added for the initial post ;P

[blackie_2k5]

the fifth injector works alongside you standard ecu and injectors, your standard's set as is, unturboed supplies fuel/air mixture in all rev ranges as is needed to run your car, this is what the ecu is programmed to do, when running a boosted set up your ecu will still supply the same as before as this is all it knows how to, you fit and mf2 and fifth injecotr unit to supply the extra fuel needed in all the rev ranges particularly the when the boost kicks in as your stock ecu does'nt understand it needs to as it cant read boost, so the mf2 is a seperate unit that controls the fifth or sixth injectors only, it hard wires into you engine loom and you map it by screwing/unscrewing the potentiometers.. each screw accounts for a rev range.... eg the first screw is 0-1000rpm 2nd screw is 1000-2000 rpm, so you adjust it to supply the extra fuel needed in each rev range for when say the boost kicks in and without it the car would under fuel, bit of a shit explanation but im v. tired and trying to explain how it works lol, mf2 as a manufacturer claims the mf2 and fifth/sixth injector can add enough fuel for up to an extra 200bhp... so its quite benficial but not even in the same league as say stand alone or even a piggy back ecu like a dastek, as these are all one sytem that uses just the four (or however many injectors your engine has) injectors your engine has to fuel your set up... with the added advantage that it understands boost and can account for changes etc the mf2 cant

[pjw]

Thats a great reply mate thanks. It seems a little bit medieval to just throw in some fuel through the throttlebody but if it works, hey, fuck it.

Ive got a T25 and 56mm inlet/TB, intercooler and oil supply and return hoses already. After some research i figure this is the way ill go.

How much can an MF2 box set me back?

Will standard injectors work fine for the four in the head? And is the fifth a standard one too?

Standard garrett T25 actuators run at 6psi, so with a straight pipe up to the throttlebody and no boost controller id be happy running at actuator pressure as long as its fuelled sufficiently.

Please bear in mind all the above is for a very low boost setup and not looking for mahoosive powah.

[blackie_2k5]

can get mf2 from gmc (bit expensive last time i checked) or ebay brand new fro 219 iirc?
or second hand as and when they pop up(on ebay) for bout 100-130, but youll need a sigcon 2 or 3 for this type of set up.. its known as a signal modifier and this is what helps the standard ecu to understand the boost to try and adjust the fueling more suitably, hope im not confusing you here as this slighly contradicts what ive already said but its trying to explain the jist of what the mf2 set up is..... ive got a sigcon 3 for sale if your interested or saxo_89 has got the full set up for sale if you wanna pm him. standard injectors are fine in the car and the same for the fifth as this is all youll need at actuator pressure on a t25.

[pjw]

£200 seems a little excessive like with the full chebang setup on cituning for £495, but then i suppose youve got to get it all in and working. I never used to, but i think thats quite a fair price tbh.

What happens to the fuel sprayed all over your closed TB immediately after you let go of the pedal and before the dumpvalve dumps to recirc or atmosphere?

[Ste]

If the MF2 is setup right it should have stopped spraying well before the throttle butterfly shuts.

[pjw]

How could it possibly do that? If your on boost and let go, it cant even be a split second before the butterfly is shut..

[ryanmt]

How could it possibly do that? If your on boost and let go, it cant even be a split second before the butterfly is shut..

Ecus are fast enough to make a good number of calculations for every few degrees of engine rotation.. at 7500rpm.. a split second is a lifetime.

[Franc3z]

Very good thread :y:

Where I can buy the pieces?

Are this a good choice ?

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x174/008112/tu_16v_compo_1.jpg

In portugal are dificulty buy pieces and are very expensive.

I hope u help me.

Cump's

[Franc3z]

Anybody can help me ?

Cituning or Dp-engineering ??

[Sophia_Bush]

DP for you

[Franc3z]

DP for you

Thanks :y:

Gt28r are good ?

[VTurboR]

can get mf2 from gmc (bit expensive last time i checked) or ebay brand new fro 219 iirc?
or second hand as and when they pop up(on ebay) for bout 100-130, but youll need a sigcon 2 or 3 for this type of set up.. its known as a signal modifier and this is what helps the standard ecu to understand the boost to try and adjust the fueling more suitably, hope im not confusing you here as this slighly contradicts what ive already said but its trying to explain the jist of what the mf2 set up is..... ive got a sigcon 3 for sale if your interested or saxo_89 has got the full set up for sale if you wanna pm him. standard injectors are fine in the car and the same for the fifth as this is all youll need at actuator pressure on a t25.

ive got everything i now need..... well i thought i did, why would i need the sigcon if the MF2 goes to the ECU/Diagnostic port

can someone please explain in as much detail as poss what the sigcon does and is for

also where can i get a new sigcon 3 from is it is 100% needed?

thanks in advance guys.

[bigcalturbo]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Citroen-Saxo-T3T4-Turbo-Charger-Kit_W0QQitemZ350241682898QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item518c07f5d2

basic turbo kit from the states reasonable price get thegt28rs mate much better turbo or the gt2871r

[Sophia_Bush]

that kit is no good all of that stuff you could get cheaper order as seperates over here and the turbo is well not great t3/t4 yeah spool at 5k type job

[ryanmt]

theres also some real shite in there thats of no use, like the fake braided hose covers

[blackie_2k5]

thought id resurrect this as its been long forgotten and the site has now reached a point where theres at least a thread a day about turbo conversions or ebay baragins, put simpley there is alot of shit floating around on ebay atm and for the last few months from the blackpool area, its all thrown together toss in scrap cars being passed on for a profit, there are a few names but as it seems ebay is now wise and is barring all users, BEWARE OF THESE!! if the seller has no feedback do not even think about buying it, unless it looks to be of decent quality and "show like parts" please ask before bidding as numerous ppl are being ripped of for little but scrapyard junk!!

while im here i may aswell post up some more helpfull information:

ill start with a few pics:
http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss328/blackie_2k5/saxopart1009-1.jpg

this is a mocal 13 row oil cooler kit, IMO a must for any boosted engine whether it be budget build or big power, this should be suitable for all applications up to around 160-180bhp track use and 200bhp fast road use, other wise youll need a bigger cooler, this kit does NOT have a thermostat (although you can get kits with them) but i do have a stat for it, just not pictured. you do NEED a stat as you only want the oil cooled when its hot enough, over cooled oil is worse then undercooler and we all know what can happen when your engine over heats!! please note the braided lines in the pic are not part of the kit they are brake lines, can pick a kit like this up from various places inc ebay for around £120, you can find them more or less expensive but this is an ok price.

http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss328/blackie_2k5/saxopart1003-1.jpg

this is a 2.25" or 57mm stainless steel boost pipe kit, the kit is universal and you tailor it to you needs, you can get saxo/106/ specific kits with specific pipe from custom fabricators and the likes of gmc, cituning, dp engineering and many other places. when choosing the size of your kit you have think of many things before just purchasing a size, the inlet size of your throttle body, the size and spool rate of your turbo, you charge cooler ports and so on, i chose this as my intercooler ports are the same size, as is the inlet on my vtr throttle body, im yet to chose a turbo but as its a smaller engine this size should be adequate and being as though the inet and i/c are the same size the only point realistically i may need to fit a pipe reducer/size stepper is at the compressor side of the turbo, you dont want sizes stepped all over the place as it affects the flow/boost power and spool up of the turbo aswell as creating bad turbulence in the sytem. depending on size of pipe, type of material and whether its universal or custom you can expect to pay anywhere from £40 to 300+ i got this from the bay for £67 on auction iirc.

http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss328/blackie_2k5/saxopart1.jpg

this is a cituning/miltek manifold i bought off a sax-p member for my build but have now sold it on to gixxa :) these are over £200 new (cant remeber the exact price) and are very good mani's can cope with up to 300bhp iirc? can buy them as part of the cituning turbo kit or by themselves (downpipes can also be purchased) and they take the t25/28 and gt17 types turbo's(also some others) there are many diff mani's you can buy or like all things have one custom made, specialists for customs are the likes of dp engineering and bogg brothers, free flow and equal length being the best but you decide by cost and expected power which to use, however they can cost quite a bit. if going the budget build you can have your standard engines manifold adapted to take which ever turbo you use, but beware of the turbo as many have to sit flat to stop the oil pooling in the bottom of the turbo charger and causing it to fail, the oil must flow nicely back out into your sump (this is a prob with any of the ebay specials!) if your competant with a welder or know someone who is i see no reason that a mani and downpipe can be made yourself after youve bought the turbo you need to use and correctly mapped out where it needs to sit etc. if making your own make sure you use a common turbo to model it round or your custom jobby may become pretty much a paper weight if your turbo fails!!

http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss328/blackie_2k5/saxopart1010.jpg

for all those unsure this is a sigcon/sigcom 3, this is whats mentioned on the previous page that runs with the mf2 and extra injector set up, it has no cover on the front as it didnt when i bought it, wont explain too much on this as its onthe previous page with its basic explanation, with this model you can also run water injection with the aid of a sigcon/sigcom 2.

also in that pic is an auto gauges boost gauge which measures in psi, its always a good idea to buy decnt gauges no matter which set up you decide to run as it lets you know what the engine is doing at any point while driving, even if you go budget build im sure youd rather save you engine then burst it if say your temp goes through the roof due to a burst rad/water pipe or a leaking sump gasket/turbo oil feed or return or what ever the prob may be, so IMO dont cheap out as its your engine!!

other then this last pic thts all for now folks as this has taken me quite abit of time and being saturday its now time to crack that bottle of vodka open ;) hope this comes in handy to some ppl and this lil pic is a funky way of mounting said gauges, i had this a while back and sold but would like a new one to go with my flocked dash, if anyone knows where to get these please post a link as ive searched like fuck and cant seem to find one anywhere!! would be helpfull to me and others reading this thread if they like it!!
http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss328/blackie_2k5/saxocentreconsole.jpg

[wildrenegade]

great thread

[Andy_K]

hope this comes in handy to some ppl and this lil pic is a funky way of mounting said gauges, i had this a while back and sold but would like a new one to go with my flocked dash, if anyone knows where to get these please post a link as ive searched like fuck and cant seem to find one anywhere!! would be helpfull to me and others reading this thread if they like it!!
http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss328/blackie_2k5/saxocentreconsole.jpg

Nice post Blackie!
The guage pod id no longer made (was Street Specials who went bust years ago) but they sometimes pop up on Ebay. Also I think there was a company who made copies which also come up from time to time.

However, www.audiosport.co.uk make a similar pod for 2 guages which clips into where the vent is. Its not quite as nice as the 3 hole one but does teh job fine. I got one, but chopped it about a bit and smoothed it into the centre console to neaten it up a bit.

[3cott]

Grate bit of info :y:

[blackie_2k5]

cheers lads, and cheers andy, thats quite a good link youve posted, looks like the 2 gauge will be the best option by the sounds of things, that one i had i just shot a load of white gloss on it to see where it needed finishing, as it needed a GOOD tidy up. then flickered going boost and sold it :( be alot less to work to fit that double pod though and least itl be a guaranteed fit to the dash.

[Sophia_Bush]

full basic 8v turbo kit pics coming soon! with links to pretty much 90% of bits needed

[samueljonburgess]

this is a good little read :) should be a sticky

[Sophia_Bush]

bump this up I guess since people are asking yet again

see post 8 for ref pic thread

[blackie_2k5]

i may tag in a guide to fitting forged pistons to a vtr lump, with lots of pics if ppl are interested?, if so give thaks to this post(so i can gauge interest) im only going to do it if alot will be interested... as it will take a pretty chunk of my time putting the guide together.

[Sophia_Bush]

to the top

bump as many people not bothering to search again

[Greedo]

Ressurection - great guide

[Et989]

Hi everyone is it 100% necessary to have standalone ecu for turbo build or can the standard ecu be remapped to work well with turbo applications.

[AdamH]

certain places can map the standarnd ecu..

Wayne @ chipwizards up north
Pug1off down south..

Best bet is to contact them regarding it

[Chipwizards]

Didn't know pug1off could do them....?

[Chipwizards]

Hi everyone is it 100% necessary to have standalone ecu for turbo build or can the standard ecu be remapped to work well with turbo applications.

It depends which car you have, I haven't done boosted versions of every type of ECU, but I have done most types.

[AdamH]

Didn't know pug1off could do them....?

I didn't realise either but a few people on facebook have mentioned they have..... might be worth a call?