Your views on a VTS transplant... preferably people with experience

[CHIP]

Hi Peeps.

Right, the Sax recently rolled over 90k and although i know if i treat her nice she will go for plenty more, im thinking next year it may be a good idea to retire the R lump and go for a VTS lump.
Basically what i want to know is if it's as simple a conversion as it sounds?
I know i will need ECU, Engine (obv.), Manifold (cant live without a 4-2-1) and loom (?). But will i need a VTS gearbox?

Also is there any problems/complications to look out for?

What i would probably do is wait till the end of next year (saving up) and find a decent lowish milage engine (will be even rarer by then, i know) and give it a semi-rebuild. Change the cambelt, oil, all filters etc. Just so i know i've got a healthy engine.

All views and suggestions are thanked for in advance. I just want to get a decent idea of what im to expect.

Also my dad is an auto electrician and mechanic. I can unlock ecu's at his work. And he's swapped plenty of engine's in the past, and done engine conversions. One was a slant 4 Lotus engine into one of his old Mk1 Escorts, so got a competent hand with me. But he hasnt done anything with a Saxo so he wont know the full in's and out's mabye.

[raunchz]

Edited - been a long day, apologies :oops:

[CHIP]

I've had a search mate and found some stuff. But i want it all in here so i can refer to it easily. Don't go off, cheers.

[J222JRA]

you dont need an s gearbox mate as they are all inter-changeable

have a word with lee_vtr1 he will give you some sounds advice mate.

James

[CHIP]

you dont need an s gearbox mate as they are all inter-changeable

have a word with lee_vtr1 he will give you some sounds advice mate.

James

I've thought about that dude, cheers. I will probably have a word with him. I'm guessing he's pretty busy with his Rallye at the minute though. I've got 4 tabs open at the minute trying to read up on it lol. But's it's abit awkward reading so much stuff in different places lol. Everyone's had different experiences.

[Krys_23]

you dont need an s gearbox mate as they are all inter-changeable

have a word with lee_vtr1 he will give you some sounds advice mate.

James

S gearbox would benefit though as the ratio's are alot closer.

[J222JRA]

true but most people prefer the r box on a vts for the longer final drive

[CHIP]

Forgive my stupidness. My dad's the one who's clever with cars, im (almost) useless lol. A quick question, the VTR box would be good around town, crap on the motorway? Or the other way round? Is there an in between?

[Paul]

Hi Peeps.

Right, the Sax recently rolled over 90k and although i know if i treat her nice she will go for plenty more, im thinking next year it may be a good idea to retire the R lump and go for a VTS lump.
Basically what i want to know is if it's as simple a conversion as it sounds?
I know i will need ECU, Engine (obv.), Manifold (cant live without a 4-2-1) and loom (?). But will i need a VTS gearbox?

Also is there any problems/complications to look out for?

What i would probably do is wait till the end of next year (saving up) and find a decent lowish milage engine (will be even rarer by then, i know) and give it a semi-rebuild. Change the cambelt, oil, all filters etc. Just so i know i've got a healthy engine.

All views and suggestions are thanked for in advance. I just want to get a decent idea of what im to expect.

Also my dad is an auto electrician and mechanic. I can unlock ecu's at his work. And he's swapped plenty of engine's in the past, and done engine conversions. One was a slant 4 Lotus engine into one of his old Mk1 Escorts, so got a competent hand with me. But he hasnt done anything with a Saxo so he wont know the full in's and out's mabye.

It is a easy job as all engine mounts will be in the same place.

You dont 'need' a VTS box, the VTR one will fit, however if i was you i would get the VTS box for accelleration.

Electronics are simple enough if you buy an engine from the same year as your VTR, such as T reg > T reg. Only dodgey years are the swap over years, X reg/2000. Irrc some have different engine loom plugs (not talking about ecu).

One more thing to think about is the fuel return, some people block it and swear that it runs fine with it blocked, others plumb it in. Its a simple enough job to do really, if your using a donor VTS car just take it off that. Theres a guide on here on how to do it.

Whilst engine is out i recommend changing belts (timing/cam belt, alternator belt). Also replacing water pump unless its on a low mileage engine.

[Paul]

Forgive my stupidness. My dad's the one who's clever with cars, im (almost) useless lol. A quick question, the VTR box would be good around town, crap on the motorway? Or the other way round? Is there an in between?

The VTR box has a longer final drive.

The VTS box has shorter gears and quicker accelleration, might be worth getting a quick shift + uprated linkages with it also.

[raunchz]

Only about a 5% diff between the vtr and Vts final drives

[Krys_23]

Sorry to hijack but what like are the saxo 1400cc boxes?

[Paul]

Very simular to VTR box's 'i think'.

[raunchz]

Very simular to VTR box's 'i think'.

Yeh, same final drive ratio as the VTR box and pretty much similar ratios for 1 through to 5.

The vtr has 'sports' ratios whereas the 1400 box is a non-sports box. The revdrop when changing gear takes you 'off' the powerband in a non-sports box (relatively speaking that is)

[CHIP]

The VTR box has a longer final drive.

The VTS box has shorter gears and quicker accelleration, might be worth getting a quick shift + uprated linkages with it also.

This has been thought about also and hopefully on the cards soon anyway.

[Wizzy]

With regards to gearboxes you want a vts box or shorter. A vtr box would kill the fun imo although it would have a high top speed. Late vtr boxes have sports ratios but a long final drive (same as diesel iirc)

As mentioned if you get an engine from the same year as your car you will have no problems. You can fit any engine as long as it has the same ecu (single or 3-plug) but you may have to change one of two multi plugs, in my experience for the fuel cut off switch and for the cooling fan. This may differ engine to engine though.

It is a necessity to run a fuel return line imo, the engine was designed to use one. I would also advise using genuine citroen fuel lines as they run through the passenger compartment but some have just made their own.

You will also need a vts throttle cable, top radiator hose and ideally the larger vts/mk2 vtr radiator.

Deffinately service the engine and change the cambelt. Anything else is up to you really.

There is a 'how to' thread on here which covers most of the basics.

[AlexB]

Vtr box on vts is shiiitteeee get a vts box at least
it's way to long

the rest your about right

[CHIP]

Vtr box on vts is shiiitteeee get a vts box at least
it's way to long

the rest your about right

I guessed this may be the case. In all fairness, it would kinda make sense just to buy a vts with prices nowadays. But i couldnt let my Sax go. It's not physically possible lol. So i think this may be the future. Just want to know the complication's i may stumble across if/when i fit the S lump, so that i can be ready.

[raunchz]

Only real complications people have are with the wrong engine looms, locked Ecus and fuel return lines

[mtpagey]

or knackered vts lumps in my case :wall: I got screwed over on that one :sad:

[raunchz]

Personally I'd change cambelt and all the idlers etc on that side of the engine while it's on an engine stand.

I wish I'd done the headgasket too, looking back.

You'd be fitting an engine with most bits new (bar internals) - and all major service parts being new the engine should last 60k with just regular servicing.

[CHIP]

Personally I'd change cambelt and all the idlers etc on that side of the engine while it's on an engine stand.

I wish I'd done the headgasket too, looking back.

You'd be fitting an engine with most bits new (bar internals) - and all major service parts being new the engine should last 60k with just regular servicing.

Thats what i was planning on dude. Like i say i think it'll be a case of buy a decent engine, change cambelt, gaskets, filters etc and fit it with fresh oil. Mabye some uprated engine mounts at the same time.

So basically:

Fuel return line plumbed in
Make sure engine is from a car of the same age
Make sure ECU is the same plug as mine?
Pref. VTS box


Like i say, my dad's an auto electrician and mechanic and has plenty of experience. Also has all the equipment to disable immobilisers/unlock ECU's. I work next door to his work aswell so communicating with him and his work is a doddle.

[AlexB]

basically yea

ive seen a few people block up the return off the fuel rail and just use the one line like

apart from that all the info needed is inthe stickies man
you can mix and match a bit but tbh it can be a ballache
if i was in your position id look at a jp4 tbh but that means playing with looms ect

[CHIP]

Is there anywhere with more information on this JP4 i've heard about Alex? This is what Lee's fitting, yea? Is there any advantages/disadvantages with it?

[LeeM]

get a vts box.
i'll be honest, for me the conversion was a piece of piss. i have been on saxo forums for around 8 year though so knew all the theory.
the best advice i can give is to start out with all the right bits, get the right engine from the start. ie; if you have a 2003 vtr, get a 2003 vts engine, 1998 vtr get a 1998 vts engine...

[AlexB]

Is there anywhere with more information on this JP4 i've heard about Alex? This is what Lee's fitting, yea? Is there any advantages/disadvantages with it?

the tu5 jp4 is the next generation of the tu5 j4
its basically found in a lot of the more modern pugs/cits and tends to come with lower mileage and can be picked up quite cheaply as there not seen as performace models

theres a bit of swapping about needed to get them in (inlet mani exhaust mani sump loom thermostat ecu side mount alternator ect) but they can be worth it for a nice low mileage lump if you can find the bits cheap enough like
lee is lobbing one in his rallye so can probably inform a lot more once its completed

the advantages are mostly in the head as it runs bigger valves and some run bigger injectors aswell i think
they have the potential to make some nice power with breathing mods (i wouldnt be suprised to see one or 2 pop 140hp at fly on some rollers) aswell as the fact the cars tey come from tend to be a lower insureance group so that can be played on too when decaliring it all

[LeeM]

alex, do you know if i'll have everything i need to to put a jp4 engine in, with me having a vts conversion? if i just get an engine straight out of a c2 or 207 or somethin?

[AlexB]

if your allready running a vts lump (or have one lying about ect) then yes everything will be there

you need (from memory)
inlet manifold
exhaust manifold
loom
ecu
sump
ecu side engine mount and bracket
cam belt covers (not sure if this is 100% nessecary)
thermostat housing
and any assosiated sensors to the age of the loom as the plugs change (maybe an injector loom too)

[stupotvtr]

I've just got my vtr back from having a vts lump put in it's great! when I was talking to the garage that did it for me I told them I was going to cam it later and they said I should get it done while the vts engine was out so it was easyier. Also the timing belt was getting done anyway so if your thinking of camming the vts lump do cams at the sam time:y:

[Ryan]

true but most people prefer the r box on a vts for the longer final drive

Not many i know, even the vts box some people feel is to 'long'.

Theoretical top end of 160/170iirc on a vtr box on a 16v? no point.

[blackie_2k5]

Not many i know, even the vts box some people feel is to 'long'.

Theoretical top end of 160/170iirc on a vtr box on a 16v? no point.

didnt think itd be that high tbh

[AlexB]

didnt think itd be that high tbh

my old vts had an r box on it
at 7800 on rollers wheels were over 155mph (not on clocks by the rollers themselves)

it was shit even with cams in

[CHIP]

Cheers for the info folks. Alex, the JP4 engine sounds like it has it's advantages, but is also a fair bit bigger job. Worth the extra effort?

[AlexB]

Swings and roundabouts tbh with the jp4
I would go for one but I know what I'm getting myself in for doing it so the lower mileage swings it for me

a lot of people would be put off by the likes of having to drill and tap holes in the cylender head for the inlet ect

[willsy]

With Lee's JP4 we've had to swap ALL of the sensors over (thankfully we've managed to gather the full set *except tb ones* between his old Rallye engine and the old VTR engine that he had)

To confirm a few other things:

Inlet manifold to fit the J4 one to it you have to drill and tap all of the top holes (bottom ones line up ok)

Sump has to be changed as the JP4 lower engine mount actually mounts onto the sump too, and it doesnt have the sensor in the base of it that most Saxo's have

Alternator setup is completely different

ECU side engine mount is completely different, where it bolts to the engine the holes are there but 1 needs to be tapped out to take the correct mounting stud.

JP4 doesnt have the driveshaft bearing bracket that the VTR/VTS has so you'll have to take that off your old engine- the mounting holes are on the JP4 engine though

You'll also need to buy a coilpack too as the JP4 one isnt compatable

You also need to swap over the tubing at the rear of the engine where the coolant hose/heater matrix hose attaches

The ecu side engine mount on the JP4 engine bolts onto the engine via the cambelt covers. When you take this off you'll be left with a sizeable hole. If you want to fit the gti/vts covers you'll need to take off the rear cover and swap that too which involves taking off the cambelt

You'll also need vts/gti fuel rail

Theres probably alot more than that, but we havn't come across it all yet.


Basically if you dont have the bits lying about or cannot salvage much from your old engine itll end up costing you a large chunk more than it would simply fitting the GTI/VTS engine.

Also ive seen the occasional VTR with a fuel return line so have a check to see if you're lucky and already have one plumbed in.



Lastly it doesnt matter what insurance group the engine comes out of, ill be a 1.6 16v saxo regardless so you will pay the equivalent of that group. It WILL NOT make it cheaper if its from say a pug 307 with insurance group 7 (random number for example, i dont know the 307's insurance group)

[mikey1]

I've just got my vtr back from having a vts lump put in it's great! when I was talking to the garage that did it for me I told them I was going to cam it later and they said I should get it done while the vts engine was out so it was easyier. Also the timing belt was getting done anyway so if your thinking of camming the vts lump do cams at the sam time:y:

how much did it cost you to get you s lump in your vtr?

[jpsaxo]

The only problem with jp4 engine is the bottom end is weaker than the j4, so in an ideal world you'd have the j4 bottom end, and jp4 head!

[Olly]

As josh says, Buy a bare jp4 head, and fit everything from the j4 into it. (except keep the jp4 valves obviously :p) This is more involved however, and moving away from a sinple 'freshen up' of an engine and fit.

I might have a fully re-built j4 engine with jp4 head (j4 internals) for sale in a few months. Once i have run it in.

[Drago]

The only problem with jp4 engine is the bottom end is weaker than the j4, so in an ideal world you'd have the j4 bottom end, and jp4 head!

Unless the engine is being put into a state of tune where the bottom end is under alot of stress i.e boost etc this really doesnt come into play.

Im yet to see a JP4 bottom end failure from heavy breathing mods

Unless someone can enlighten me?

[djadzvtr]

ive just done it myself.....just about to do the fuel return now!! :)

imo well worth it!!!

[sams_vts]

Electronics are simple enough if you buy an engine from the same year as your VTR, such as T reg > T reg. Only dodgey years are the swap over years, X reg/2000. Irrc some have different engine loom plugs (not talking about ecu).


i have a mk2 vtr 2000 x reg. which engine will fit straight in?
thanks

[will04]

i have the same issue, im thinkin about doing a 16v conversion into my vtr but mine is also x reg, 2000, mk2 , wich engine fits mine