Cammed vtr won't idle

[andymiller_VTR]

Finally fitted my piper 285 to my vtr yesterday. Car is running ok, very lumpy low down but fine high up.

Problem is theres no idle at all. When u start it it just cuts out straight away and if your driving and put your foot on the clutch it does the same. If you move the position of the butterfly then it sorts it and it idles just very lumpy but obviously this isnt the right way to do it. Also when you do this the car runs worse for some reason.

Its on the standard ecu with the standard map etc.

The car ran fine with the standard cam and never gave me any problems at all. Just wondering what i can do to sort my idle out ??

cheers guys.

[raunchz]

sounds like timing is out from the cams recommended spec?

you just got it timed into standard marks ?

[andywiddss1]

as above sounds like u need to mess with the timming if its very lump then it maybe timmed up for max bhp ,thats ok as long as it will tick over with out cutting out ,u maybe able to adjust the timming to get it to tick over but then u will not be getting the best out of the cams .maybe the ecu needs abit of a remap

[andymiller_VTR]

well the pulley had been used and all the settings were were set at the middle which i took as being just the normally settings. As far as the rest of it goes it just timed up to standard timing and the valve clearances set to the piper specs of inlet 0.2 and and exhaust 0.25.

any ideas ?

[andywiddss1]

do piper recomend it to be set to the middle setting u need to find the proper settings for that cam mate, most after market cams are not normally set to the standard timming marks .did u buy the cam new or second hand

[raunchz]

well the pulley had been used and all the settings were were set at the middle which i took as being just the normally settings. As far as the rest of it goes it just timed up to standard timing and the valve clearances set to the piper specs of inlet 0.2 and and exhaust 0.25.

any ideas ?

Setting the timing of a fast/race camshaft up is key to it working properly. It sounds like you need to get the timing setup properly as opposed to standard marks.

Getting the valve clearances setup is a good start - now to time the camshaft up

[andymiller_VTR]

ill check there website just now :)

i got it second hand but it hadnt done many miles.

would the timing cure the idle problem then ??

EDIT: cheers bud, i cant set the timing :( ill need to get a garage to do it i think. Will it damage it running it as it is or will it be ok for a couple of days??

[raunchz]

http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/product.php?pid=VTRBP285

I'm presuming this is the camshaft you've got?

[andywiddss1]

ill check there website just now :)

i got it second hand but it hadnt done many miles.

would the timing cure the idle problem then ??

yes mate :clapping:

[andymiller_VTR]

ok so timing should be 22‑62 and 62-22 apparently. that sound right. i dont know what the stanard timing is ??

[raunchz]

So you have the BP285R camshaft?

Full lift is at 110degrees so I'd time it up using that figure with a timing wheel - not sure if there's a more accurate method tbh

[andywiddss1]

ok so timing should be 22‑62 and 62-22 apparently. that sound right. i dont know what the stanard timing is ??

carnt help u with standard timing i was a vts man but no abit about cams as i fitted ph3 cams in my vts and used it for 6 months unmapped at the time everyone said it wouldnt run unmapped :homme:but after abit of messing with the timming got it to tick over very lumpy ,got it on a r/r and showed 157bhp unmapped so i was happy ,then sold it an bought a 300 bhp scooby ha ha

[raunchz]

http://www.burtonpower.com/technical_1/camshaft_fitting_timing.aspx

[andywiddss1]

So you have the BP285R camshaft?

Full lift is at 110degrees so I'd time it up using that figure with a timing wheel - not sure if there's a more accurate method tbh

yep looks like 108 at tdc so easy to time if he has a timming wheel :oops:

[vtr_chris90]

Yer u will need to get a timing disk to do it, then it still may need to be turned a couple of degrees at the pully too. I turned the crank 110deg as Newman stated and I still had to retard the pullyy 3degs on the rollers

bu it should run alot better if u keep the pully how it is then turn the crank to pipers spec

[andymiller_VTR]

aww i see. so the crank as to be set to 110 degrees then ??

[raunchz]

http://www.burtonpower.com/technical_1/camshaft_fitting_timing.aspx

:y: :geek:

[vtr_chris90]

Yerthats how inwas told to do mine by nick at shenpar motorsport. Cause I had a similar prob to you.
I can't remeber if u retard it or advance it though, but u set everything to tdc then put the timing disk on the crank and turn 110deg, this should open valve 1 fully(which I think it's batt side can't remember lol), then this is where u may need adjust the pully a bit, I used a dto gauge then tweeked it on rollers
bu u shud be fine leaving it in middle setting on the pully if u get the timing on the crank spot on

[andymiller_VTR]

i have no idea about timing can you tell haha. Ill take it to a garage and get them to set it up i think :). ill tell them its 110 degrees at the crank though so they know the settings :). then they can fiddle with the pulley if need be. I saved £300 by fitting it myself with a couple of mates so its not all bad :)

[vtr_chris90]

Lol yer it's stuped how much garages charge to do it. I did it myself too and hadn't got a clue how to time the cam up, but when it was explained to me an I did it it's
actually really really easy tbh mate, u just need a timing disk, find out which way to turn it them ur away, it's dead easy to do, then just get it on rollers to tweek the pully, I gained about 6bhp by tweekeing the pully on therollers and there's probs a couple
more bhp to come out of it by tweeking the cam cause we ran out of time on
mine

[andymiller_VTR]

ye its a silly amount. Although tbf it is alot of work to do.

How can i find out what way it needs to be turned ??

[vtr_chris90]

Tbh mate I'm not too sure which way, I retarded mine, I just read piper tech bit
and that just says what I said it doesn't say which way, I think it's just which ever way gets valve open, so could be best to get the rocker cover off then turn both ways to
see which is right.

[andymiller_VTR]

ye that makes sense i guess.

Ill take it down to the garage thats done alot of work on my car on monday. My mate works there anyway so ill get him to sort it :)

cheers for the info guys :)

[raunchz]

when you turn the engine over to 110degrees after TDC then you look at which cylinder is amost at full lift and then advance/retard the camshaft by adjusting the pulley so that the valve is at full lift

The most accurate method of doing this is by using a DTI gauge to see when full lift is reached when you adjust the camshaft

[andymiller_VTR]

so what valve should be fully open the when its at 110 degrees ?? does it matter ?

[raunchz]

so what valve should be fully open the when its at 110 degrees ?? does it matter ?
I don't know as I've never timed one up but it should be fairly obvious by looking at the rockers as they move as the engine is turned which one is coming upto/close full lift

It'll be either cylinder 1 or 4, and inlet at a guess

[andymiller_VTR]

so its just whatever one is closed to full lift at that time then ?

[raunchz]

so its just whatever one is closed to full lift at that time then ?

At 110degrees after TDC a valve will be close to/just past being at full lift (10mm+ on these cams)

I think it'll be an inlet valve on either cylinder 1 or 4

If you take the rocker cover off and rotate the engine a few times you'll see when the valve is at full lift

[andymiller_VTR]

so just adjust the pulley until that valve is fully open then ye ??

[raunchz]

so just adjust the pulley until that valve is fully open then ye ??

Yeh, the valve shouldn't be far off being at full lift tbh gauging by the allowable movement in the camshaft dictated by the vernier pulley.

This will get you very close to the 'perfect' timing - to get there you'll need it tweaked on the rolling road as the operator sees fit

[andymiller_VTR]

nice cheers man. Think this will fix the idle though :(

Cause its not even close to idling just now :(

[raunchz]

nice cheers man. Think this will fix the idle though :(

Cause its not even close to idling just now :(

Yeh, this should fix the idle probs - as you've not changed anything else!

[Liam_]

Before you do anything, double check you've connected all the sensors back up. I.e sensor on the right side of the head, MAP, ICV etc.

Did you not set it to standard timing using the original pulley + locking hole before swapping it for the vernier? I would be very careful adjusting the timing from where you are - it sounds like it's way out tbh. The 285 is a pretty similar profile to the Kent PT40/ Newman PH3 - I've never heard of anyone having idling issues with those set to standard timing, or to the lift at TDC on their spec sheets.

Setting timing with a DTI to the lift at TDC (as specified by Piper) would be the most accurate way.

[andymiller_VTR]

im going to take it to a rolling road place near me and get them to set it all up timing etc and get it dyno'd.

Its kinda started to misfire now when i put my foot down just wont run right at all when cold and not much better when hot. Its started to idle now when its hot if you ease the throttle down. but when driving it still just stalls straight away :(