Power loss after fitting 4 branch Manifold + Induction kit

[nichollsvts]

I'm massively frustrated! :wall:

I fitted a Janspeed mild steel 4-2-1 branch manifold to my car, along with a Simota force feed induction kit. I've been out for a run and it has without a doubt lost power. I felt like it took longer to rev through the gears and tested it against a car that is known to be slower.

I reckon its the manifold, and think I should of just bit the bullet and bought a supersprint, but wonder if anyone else has had a similar problem with this type of manifold. I mean Janspeed isn't exactly a "made at the back of a barn from scaffolding" is it?

Hope somone can help.

Thanks,

[adamskiTNR]

The janspeed is nowhere near as restrictive as the standard. i don't know what the problem could be. It isn't going to be the bits you've put on, must be a fitting mishap or another problem. Is the cold air feed kinked at all, or blocked in any way. e.g. placed right against a bumper or slam panel

[raunchz]

I'm massively frustrated! :wall:

I fitted a Janspeed mild steel 4-2-1 branch manifold to my car, along with a Simota force feed induction kit. I've been out for a run and it has without a doubt lost power. I felt like it took longer to rev through the gears and tested it against a car that is known to be slower.

I reckon its the manifold, and think I should of just bit the bullet and bought a supersprint, but wonder if anyone else has had a similar problem with this type of manifold. I mean Janspeed isn't exactly a "made at the back of a barn from scaffolding" is it?

Hope somone can help.

Thanks,

Get rid of that !!

I fitted a green enclosed setup and the car didn't feel as lively - went back to an oem airbox with a panel filter and it was spot on.

Manifold should be fine

[Sophia_Bush]

agree with ross with a manifold should go better take the simota off and get a panel filter in the standard airbox

[DusheR]

Either the above or fit a decent cold feed

[raunchz]

Either the above or fit a decent cold feed

you cant really fit a cold air feed to these without shopping the slam panel, as they have a big scoop facing the slam panel.

Just stick to the oem airbox, good panel filter, then a coil air feed going to the airbox = WIN

[nichollsvts]

Thought this type of induction kit was a thumbs up to be honest. The link below shows what I bought. Is this no good?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CITROEN-SAXO-VTS-97-03-Air-Duct-Intake-Induction-Kit_W0QQitemZ290380340773QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Car sParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item439c045e25

I have found that fitting an induction kit in the past has caused performance loss, but these were cheap £30 piper crosses (not viper) so bought this. So standard box with decent panel filter will resolve my problem? Any recommendations?

[nichollsvts]

This is how it fitted...

http://s876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/nicholls22/?action=view&current=28022010031.jpg&newest=1

[raunchz]

This is how it fitted...

http://s876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/nicholls22/?action=view&current=28022010031.jpg&newest=1

The scoop looks like you've fitted it upagainst a flat section of the slam panel?

So surely the car will be robbed of air !

Put the oem box back on with a good panel filter !! It'll 100% be worth it !

[Chr15]

isnt the oil and crap a worry? I was concerned about mine which is nowhere near as bad in comparison?

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/nicholls22/28022010030.jpg

[raunchz]

that's one filthy engine bay !!!

[nichollsvts]

It's just alot thats built up over the years Chr15, I bought it in 2005 and sold to my brother in 2007, and then bought it back off him before christmas in 2009. Just needs a good blast under the bonnet.

[Chr15]

is that oil seeping from the cap or just being clumsy when topping the levels up?

[nichollsvts]

bit of both really. serviced it whilst I had jacked up. It hasn't had a clean under the bonnet for years though.

[nichollsvts]

Going back to the Iinduction kit, ca

[nichollsvts]

Going back to the Induction kit, can anyone advise on a decent panel filter?

Seen this one on ebay?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PIPERCROSS-Panel-Filter-PP1388-Citroen-Saxo-1-6-VTS_W0QQitemZ350312318150QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Car sParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item51903dc4c6

[raunchz]

I'd personally stick to Green or K&N

then keep the airbox, and attach a nice cold air feed to the bottom inlet of the airbox and it'll be great.

You'll feel the difference immediately

[WestyVTR]

soapy water will make it run better :-)

[raunchz]

the engine can't compress soapy water :P

[WestyVTR]

looks like its been trying too compress some nasty sh&% as it is... lol

remap it and im sure it will run well with the fanimold and filter

[raunchz]

looks like its been trying too compress some nasty sh&% as it is... lol

remap it and im sure it will run well with the fanimold and filter

you'll be taking fuel out on the remap.

I'm personally not a big fan of those filters as you're effectively fitting the filter with a big trumpet and then putting a flat face at the end of the trumpet.

The do look nice but I just felt mine restricted the cars ability to breathe through the revs

Manifold's on the other hand are a win!

[nichollsvts]

I'll stick the standard one back on for now, to see if this is causing the problem firstly. Should this be the case i'll order a panel filter for it. I'll let you all know either way.

[saxokid100]

I'll stick the standard one back on for now, to see if this is causing the problem firstly. Should this be the case i'll order a panel filter for it. I'll let you all know either way.

good stuff.................

[DusheR]

you cant really fit a cold air feed to these without shopping the slam panel, as they have a big scoop facing the slam panel.

Just stick to the oem airbox, good panel filter, then a coil air feed going to the airbox = WIN

I was thinking like Ive done. I really did notice a difference...

I found an old K&N cold air feed and done this:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1617/photo019brm.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5070/photo021iql.jpg

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8223/photo022e.jpg

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4310/photo023n.jpg

You can see where Ive ran the cold feed

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/9034/photo024g.jpg

[Ste]

Have you fitted the manifold correctly and the gasket? Theres no lip on the gasket is there?

Also is the manifold sealed to the head spot on.

Id also give it a service and stick some injector fluid through it. The standard ecu still adjusts for more air given by the mods and will try stick more fuel in. A clogged up injector will fudge it up.



Thats a cool airbox mod dusher!

[raunchz]

Not a bad mod to them tbh DusheR - is going to be better than nothing !!

IMO the best way around it would be to cut some holes or like a large slot in the slam panel so the filter takes air directly from the front of the car

[adamskiTNR]

Yeah looks like a good fix. i think i'm just gonna cut holes in the slam panel, more air

[nichollsvts]

Car was service when fitting the manifold on, but no injector fluid.Manifold was fitted correctly, using new gasket. Manifold is not leaking at all.

I've since put the standard air box back on and it is allot better, but still see any benefit from the manifold. To be honest, it feels no different to when the standard manifold was on.

Would having the standard air filter back on effect this?

[nichollsvts]

Car was service when fitting the manifold on, but no injector fluid.Manifold was fitted correctly, using new gasket. Manifold is not leaking at all.

I've since put the standard air box back on and it is allot better, but still see any benefit from the manifold. To be honest, it feels no different to when the standard manifold was on.

Would having the standard air filter back on effect this?

don't see any benefit from this sorry.

[clarksta]

that carbon so called cold air feed will draw hot air from the top of the manifold causing lag when hot

you need direct cold feed away from any heat source

[stupotvtr]

Not a bad mod to them tbh DusheR - is going to be better than nothing !!

IMO the best way around it would be to cut some holes or like a large slot in the slam panel so the filter takes air directly from the front of the car

tbh I thought of doing that. Cutting the slam pannel and welding in support but I didn't have th balls so just got a ITG pannel filter:y:

[vtrlogan]

Not a bad mod to them tbh DusheR - is going to be better than nothing !!

IMO the best way around it would be to cut some holes or like a large slot in the slam panel so the filter takes air directly from the front of the car

thats sort off what i done, really did make a difference on mine!

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/vtrlogan/Photo052.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/vtrlogan/Photo053.jpg

[Dobba-VtR]

thats sort off what i done, really did make a difference on mine!

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/vtrlogan/Photo052.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/vtrlogan/Photo053.jpg

what did you use to do that mate and dusher you need to do that to my enclosed filter lol

[Oxas16V]

You can bend the inner metall lip of the front beam up so more could pass!

+

Hang low the radiator ventilation

Sure the Airbox kill a bit of low torque but, gets an add on the higher powerband range, important for racing!

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6257/saxomotor028.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/saxomotor028.jpg/)
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8735/img0023xr.jpg
By oxas16v (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/oxas16v)

And my sax is still fast...

Robert

[nichollsvts]

Well my results have been a bit of a let down. I've sacked the Induction kit off and ordered a panel filter and some cold feed.

Don't really notice any difference from having the Janspeed 4 branch, and as a result I have ordered a Supersprint Manifold (I nedd closure). I will be fitting the bits over the weekend and let you know if it makes any difference.

Just a question on exhausts. I have a stainless steel Magnex system all the way through, and has two silencers on it. (mid and back box). Would this cause any restrictions?

[stupotvtr]

Well my results have been a bit of a let down. I've sacked the Induction kit off and ordered a panel filter and some cold feed.

Don't really notice any difference from having the Janspeed 4 branch, and as a result I have ordered a Supersprint Manifold (I nedd closure). I will be fitting the bits over the weekend and let you know if it makes any difference.

Just a question on exhausts. I have a stainless steel Magnex system all the way through, and has two silencers on it. (mid and back box). Would this cause any restrictions?

yeah middle box will cause a restriction to a certain extent all to do with pulse tunning.

[axsaxoman]

you need a middle box ,do you still have cat on it?.
no its doesn,t suprise me that the 4-2-1 manifold is not noticably better than std unit --that is 4-2-1 and bigger primaries than a janspeed.
you didn,t have a cam belt change at service did you?

[nichollsvts]

No, cambelt isn't due for another 10k so haven't bothered. But I have did think about timing, but it hasn't been touched since new.

From the manifold back I have a ss magnex de-cat, ss magnex centre section with silencer and ss magnex back box that also has silencer.

What is pulse timing? surely it wouldn't have a massive restriction on it?

When my friend fitted a manifold to his 106 gti it made a big difference to how his car went and his car sounded totally different. Mine hasn't done either of them.

[stupotvtr]

No, cambelt isn't due for another 10k so haven't bothered. But I have did think about timing, but it hasn't been touched since new.

From the manifold back I have a ss magnex de-cat, ss magnex centre section with silencer and ss magnex back box that also has silencer.

What is pulse timing? surely it wouldn't have a massive restriction on it?

When my friend fitted a manifold to his 106 gti it made a big difference to how his car went and his car sounded totally different. Mine hasn't done either of them.

did your friend fit a 4-1 or 4-2-1? If he fitted a 4-1 then that would be why it changed the way the car sounded and it would give the car more top end power. 4-2-1 gives mid range power, standard vts mani is 4-2-1.

[nichollsvts]

did your friend fit a 4-1 or 4-2-1? If he fitted a 4-1 then that would be why it changed the way the car sounded and it would give the car more top end power. 4-2-1 gives mid range power, standard vts mani is 4-2-1.

Isn't a 106 gti mani 4-2-1 also?

He had a 4-2-1 Supersprint on his, hence me going down that route. If this doesn't work then I don't know what next step to take.

[Sophia_Bush]

nich out of interest you selling the janspeed?

[fdrightup]

yeah middle box will cause a restriction to a certain extent all to do with pulse tunning.

if the middle box is straight though type design then there should not be a restriction you could try a bigger inside diameter baffle

[fdrightup]

Isn't a 106 gti mani 4-2-1 also?

He had a 4-2-1 Supersprint on his, hence me going down that route. If this doesn't work then I don't know what next step to take.

what other mods do you have on your engine

[fdrightup]

some say a 4>2>1 gives more though the rev range where as a 4>1 is for top end
had a 4>1 on my engine and it was crap then changed to a cast iron 4>2>1 was loads better but even better when i ported the cast iron one

[fdrightup]

below on the left ported headers 4>2>1 cast iron and on the right standard 4>1
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff230/fdrightup/astra/IMAG1424.jpg

[fdrightup]

decat made by me now run stock cat
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff230/fdrightup/astra/IMAG1497.jpg

ported down pipe end cast iron manifold 4>2>1
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff230/fdrightup/astra/IMAG1432.jpg

[fdrightup]

loss of power could be the system out of balance had this problem when i put on a performance back box had to get more air into the engine to compensate for this along with the fuel to match

[DusheR]

Thats a cool airbox mod dusher!

Cheers

Not a bad mod to them tbh DusheR - is going to be better than nothing !!


Yeh thats what I was thinking, and it was free :y: found everything in my garage

Yeah looks like a good fix. i think i'm just gonna cut holes in the slam panel, more air

I was supprised by the difference tbh

what did you use to do that mate and dusher you need to do that to my enclosed filter lol

Ha Ill do it for you aye, just get everything sorted.

If you look on the the right hand side to the radiator there is a large hole, thats where its fed too. Im going to remove the fogs aswell, hopefully that will get more air to it.

[stupotvtr]

if the middle box is straight though type design then there should not be a restriction you could try a bigger inside diameter baffle

I got that a bit wrong as said by john from gmc you need a centre box.

I don't see how porting the standard mani will help as this guy has now ordered a different mani and also the standard one is restricted by the shape of the pipe when it's split in to 2.

[nichollsvts]

what other mods do you have on your engine

Had a Simota Force Feed Induction, but took that off as this left my car less responsive.

Ordered a Panel filter to see how I get on with this.

[nichollsvts]

nich out of interest you selling the janspeed?

Yeah, coming off on Saturday.

[nichollsvts]

if the middle box is straight though type design then there should not be a restriction you could try a bigger inside diameter baffle

The middle box isn't straight through, it has a silencer on it.

[tipvts]

hi guys will be getting bodies soon hat size hose is the fuel lines looking to get braided hoses

[nichollsvts]

So I fitted the Supersprint today, and guess what...? Still the same!!! Maybe slighty better than the Janspeed I had on. It's not as if it's slow or anything, it just lacks that punch you should get when you have one of these on.

I also fitted a K'n'N Pannel filter and ran a cold feed to it as well and it just feels as if I never fitted either parts in the first place. (Granted, you wouldn't feel a massive from the panel filter.

So I'm stuck, the only things I can think of are

- Timing out (Car runs fine though?)
- Exhaust Systems no good Centre section with silince needs to go. (Aiming towards this conclussion)
- Possible Compression Problem but I'm doubting it could be that

What's worse, whilst fitting this in my garage a gas bottle tipped over and put a nice dent on my door. ARRGGHH!

[fdrightup]

The middle box isn't straight through, it has a silencer on it.

yup it is straight though type design some centre boxs have a 3 baffle system inside the centre box

[fdrightup]

I got that a bit wrong as said by john from gmc you need a centre box.

I don't see how porting the standard mani will help as this guy has now ordered a different mani and also the standard one is restricted by the shape of the pipe when it's split in to 2.

you mean the y piece yup standard the y piece is crap took me a few weeks to find a decent y piece

[raunchz]

So I fitted the Supersprint today, and guess what...? Still the same!!! Maybe slighty better than the Janspeed I had on. It's not as if it's slow or anything, it just lacks that punch you should get when you have one of these on.

I also fitted a K'n'N Pannel filter and ran a cold feed to it as well and it just feels as if I never fitted either parts in the first place. (Granted, you wouldn't feel a massive from the panel filter.

So I'm stuck, the only things I can think of are

- Timing out (Car runs fine though?)
- Exhaust Systems no good Centre section with silince needs to go. (Aiming towards this conclussion)
- Possible Compression Problem but I'm doubting it could be that

What's worse, whilst fitting this in my garage a gas bottle tipped over and put a nice dent on my door. ARRGGHH!

They aren't going to give you night and day differences when fitting them

[nichollsvts]

They aren't going to give you night and day differences when fitting them

I don't understand?

[raunchz]

Fitting them won't give you a huge jump in power - so the car feeling like it did before doesn't suprise me much tbh - at least it doesn't feel slower.

Making more power isn't cheap or easy (relative)

[Mieran]

Did you give the car a good test of before and after? Sometimes when fitting mods, you expect it to be faster, but its the same which makes you think its slower.

Sounds to me the problem is not related to the modifications and something happened in between. Get it on a rolling road and see the AFR and what power its making.

[666saxo666]

what did ya do with the lambda sensor. you sure you have refitted correctly. sounds like that is causing you problems...

[nichollsvts]

Lamba Sensor was fitted on just where the manifold went from 4 to two. There is an option to stick it as it goes to one, before the cat. But thought put it roughly where it would go on the standard mani.

I'm not expecting mind blowing performance out these mods, but I was expecting feel the difference. Granted a good amount of power increase needs a fair bit of capital, but you should be able to at least notice the difference when having a decent system on it. Standard kit obviously has restriction on them or we simply wouldn't change them would we?

[Ste]

You should feel the difference.

The janspeed 4-2-1 is a funny one, mainly because its not built like a normal 4-2-1. From what ive read (exhaust gas management is an art itself) the primaries should collect into an equal length pipe, however the second pipe on the Janspeed is only a couple of Inches making it more like a 4-1 in terms of the gas pulses.

The main reason im highlighting this is because that sort of design (4-1) is used to push the torque higher up the rev range, so much so you can loose power down low in the revs. But this gain is noticeable upwards of 5k - especially with the GMC 4-1, so either your air filter can't flow enough to increase the power higher up where the fuel and air demand is much higher. Or the manifold has a major bottleneck.

What sort of exhaust have you got from the manifold back?

Personally id take the car for a run without a filter installed at all. Id remove the breather, the whole lot upto the throttle body. The simota isn't a good filter anyway. Remove everything upto the throttle body and have a go.

Also if your breather pipe is kinked or blocked you will loose power. If ANYTHING makes the air swirl or pause or lag in any way it will effect the way the fuel atomises and can easily leak your bhp away.

Aim for this - Get the coldest air in as fast as possible with every pipe 57m or bigger with as little obstruction as possible.

Just as a side note before you think about selling it Colin felstead has a simota on his rally car. Im not very clued up about this but people ive spoke to are so hopefully the above will help you out. And btw your engine looks fuckin disgusting.

[nichollsvts]

You should feel the difference.

The janspeed 4-2-1 is a funny one, mainly because its not built like a normal 4-2-1. From what ive read (exhaust gas management is an art itself) the primaries should collect into an equal length pipe, however the second pipe on the Janspeed is only a couple of Inches making it more like a 4-1 in terms of the gas pulses.

The main reason im highlighting this is because that sort of design (4-1) is used to push the torque higher up the rev range, so much so you can loose power down low in the revs. But this gain is noticeable upwards of 5k - especially with the GMC 4-1, so either your air filter can't flow enough to increase the power higher up where the fuel and air demand is much higher. Or the manifold has a major bottleneck.

What sort of exhaust have you got from the manifold back?

Personally id take the car for a run without a filter installed at all. Id remove the breather, the whole lot upto the throttle body. The simota isn't a good filter anyway. Remove everything upto the throttle body and have a go.

Also if your breather pipe is kinked or blocked you will loose power. If ANYTHING makes the air swirl or pause or lag in any way it will effect the way the fuel atomises and can easily leak your bhp away.

Aim for this - Get the coldest air in as fast as possible with every pipe 57m or bigger with as little obstruction as possible.

Just as a side note before you think about selling it Colin felstead has a simota on his rally car. Im not very clued up about this but people ive spoke to are so hopefully the above will help you out. And btw your engine looks fuckin disgusting.

Have SS Magnex Decat with mid silencer and backbox. TBH, I've kinda come to terms that it just isn't a quick car, for reasons that are just unknown. When I sold to my bro, he looked after it and serviced it all time, but when I bought it back it just didn't feel that nippy. It's as if it's got daft miles on it 42k is nothing.

I've since fitted Supersprint (can't remember if I put this on or not) and gone back to standard OEM box with KnN Panel filter with cold feed and still remains the same. I'll be keeping my as it doesn't have any problems, other than having the power of a VTR. I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually....

Thanks everyone for your time.

[Sophia_Bush]

what I would say mate at this moment in time you have done all you can if the car runs fine and you are not having any adverse problems. I would say next step is when you got time stick it on a rolling road see what power it is making and even tho it is on standard cams you never know timing maybe be bit out.

[nichollsvts]

Never had one done, so probably best. Well thanks to everyone with there input. If I get the rolling road done anytime soon, I'll let you know the outcome.......unless it's so bad in which case I won't.