track car N/A engine setup?? Which ecu?

[jsdvtr]

Im building my saxo vtr/s into a track car but use everyday atm but will be coming off road towards end of the year. Im currently comcentrating on engine and handling things.

Ive currently got vts engine with vts box, miltek full system, simota enclosed induction.

Im looking at buying a s1 rallye box with lsd fitted and some cams not sure whether to go 708/ph3 or slightly wilder with either jenveys or at bodies. The engine will be getting rebuilt sometime when its offroad before next year when plan getting it finally ready for some track day action. Also a supersprint race system with a 4 branch.

I would like some ideas of a good build with around 200bhp per tonne id be happy with.

[raunchz]

If you can get the car to around 850kgs then you need 170bhp for 200bhp/ton

[Mochachino]

I thought you were turbo'ing and putting ITB's on your car?

[AndySAXO]

well if you want to run wilder cams than ph3 then have to get valve cut pistons i.e. high compression pistons

it not too hard to get the car down to 850kg, i wieghted mine it was about 870ish, still alot more to come off!

i will hopfully be around the 170 mark aswell once mapped!

yer a short ratio box is a must for N/A cars, but would want a good final drive aswell!

basiclly look at re biuld the bottom end with high comp pistons with good bearings aswell!

then get some head work done with maybe ph3 or ph4!

toad runs ph4 with 80 mm pistons and big valve head and is run about 185 bhp!

so should look at his car for that!

[Ryan]

before people state, the s1 box is not a short ratio box, if the engine is a peaky one it will be no better on the rev drops than a vts one because the gears are spaced the same.

The final drive is popular, i went for an xsi one myself

[axsaxoman]

does this car have to pass and MOT --is it really a track car or abit of both road + track
that will be the decider on what spec you go to with engine and what max rpm do you wish to run

[nath106]

i drive my S1 16v daily, its stripped but has a cage etc i have no issues with my xsi 1.4 gearbox and the ATB on the road

i am running all the usual mods minus ITBs, will have around 150-60bhp when fully mapped and it will be about 850kgs


it will be enough for me i hope. going ITBs is only really worthwhile if you get high comps to go with etc do it right or not at all imho


have a ride in mine when its mapped

[AndySAXO]

yer i am running with an XSI gearbox, but i think the final drive might be off a vts box, as it very tall, unsure if that the case with standard xsi gearbox!

not really try at full RPM as i am runnning in my engine.

andy

[Ryan]

yer i am running with an XSI gearbox, but i think the final drive might be off a vts box, as it very tall, unsure if that the case with standard xsi gearbox!

not really try at full RPM as i am runnning in my engine.

andy

it may be a 1.6xsi box.

[AndySAXO]

i 1.6 xsi is longer in the gears it is a 1.4 xsi gearbox well the ratio does seem close in the first 4 gears just a tall last gear!

[rorz_vts]

i 1.6 xsi is longer in the gears it is a 1.4 xsi gearbox well the ratio does seem close in the first 4 gears just a tall last gear!

Can some 1 explain please what you mean cause ive got a vts box on at the min and ive got a refurbed 1.4xsi box sitting in the garage is it possible to change the final gear over to have the longer gear rather than toppin out at 110 with the xsi box

[jsdvtr]

well if you want to run wilder cams than ph3 then have to get valve cut pistons i.e. high compression pistons

it not too hard to get the car down to 850kg, i wieghted mine it was about 870ish, still alot more to come off!

i will hopfully be around the 170 mark aswell once mapped!

yer a short ratio box is a must for N/A cars, but would want a good final drive aswell!

basiclly look at re biuld the bottom end with high comp pistons with good bearings aswell!

then get some head work done with maybe ph3 or ph4!

toad runs ph4 with 80 mm pistons and big valve head and is run about 185 bhp!

so should look at his car for that!

Ye toads car is very nice a good engine spec. Well i have been thinking about high comp piston's, fitting these- do they any extra bhp or are they just there for fitting wilder cams?
Also would running ph4 need uprated lifters and followers, etc?

does this car have to pass and MOT --is it really a track car or abit of both road + track
that will be the decider on what spec you go to with engine and what max rpm do you wish to run


Well i want it to be a track/weekend car but it will be driven to track so will need to be mot'd yes.

[Toad]

The higher compression pistons will aid power as well as torque. Going oversize will aid more torque IMO.

With PH4's, you'll definitely require harder valve springs. Newman do them... Stock hydraulic lifters are fine, as maximum power is typically achieved around 7600rpm.

[nath106]

rather than toppin out at 110 with the xsi box

you wont top out at 110 anyway

i can pull that 4th gear


but then i have a rev limit of over 7000rpm

[Ryan]

i 1.6 xsi is longer in the gears it is a 1.4 xsi gearbox well the ratio does seem close in the first 4 gears just a tall last gear!

The ratios are the same for the 1.4 and 1.6xsi

The final drive isnt.

[rorz_vts]

you wont top out at 110 anyway

i can pull that 4th gear


but then i have a rev limit of over 7000rpm

i was just goin off what my cousin said when he sold it to me but im goin to take it that they dont have the final drive the vts's do tho

[AndySAXO]

The ratios are the same for the 1.4 and 1.6xsi

The final drive isnt.

oo didnt know that my well have on of them then.

andy

[jsdvtr]

There is also a company near me, lancaster engines that is meant to be really good and they do any work and meant to be good priced to so may get head ported and polished, etc.

What bodies should i go for, at or jenveys?? What lenght would you reccomend?

paying for s1 box and lsd this weekend which im looking forward to getting fitted tbh, but its got the rallye final drive rather than being changed. How hard is it to get it changed?

Also going to get a very good suspension setup.

[Ryan]

if its got the rallye final drive why do you want to change it?

To change the crown wheel its a box appart job.

[jsdvtr]

if its got the rallye final drive why do you want to change it?

To change the crown wheel its a box appart job.

Well i didnt know how much of a job it was and know some people change them for motorway driving, etc. was just a idea tbh but i dont really do much motorway driving even now when cars daily so its not much of a problem.

[Ryan]

if you are that worried about motorway driving and dont use 5th gear on track you can allways change that.

[Mochachino]

Well i didnt know how much of a job it was and know some people change them for motorway driving, etc. was just a idea tbh but i dont really do much motorway driving even now when cars daily so its not much of a problem.

You wont need to change it then will you.

[dannygti]

if your worried about motorway driving on a track car id rethink your whole setup....
a motorway car will never make a great track car.. vice versa

[gavin_t]

I would go for a standard vts lump with breathing mods (give you circa 135-140bhp) and then spend the rest on handling, cage and weight loss.

Standard engine will give more then enough grunt to get you started on track with a car of around 850kg. Plus with standard cams you will have a wider powerband and will make it more driver friendly for a newbie to track.

I use a full interiored VTS on track with bilstien suspension, GTI-6 brakes, S2 box with quaife ATB, 4-1 manni, magnex catback and enclosed induction kit. Will keep up with alot of stuff on track. and is my fairly "comfortable" daily drive too :) did have an xsi final drive too but found it too short for daily use for what if any it gained me in preformance


Standard car with uprated pads and good tyres is a more then capable machine to start with then just loose some weight from it and go from there imo


PS have written this assuming you havent done much track driving before but if you have sorry just tell me to go stick it haha

[geordie_alex]

This has been a very helpfull thread, im after doing something similar to my vtr just because I cant be arsed with an engine swap.

[Saaamon]

I would go for a standard vts lump with breathing mods (give you circa 135-140bhp) and then spend the rest on handling, cage and weight loss.

Standard engine will give more then enough grunt to get you started on track with a car of around 850kg. Plus with standard cams you will have a wider powerband and will make it more driver friendly for a newbie to track.

I use a full interiored VTS on track with bilstien suspension, GTI-6 brakes, S2 box with quaife ATB, 4-1 manni, magnex catback and enclosed induction kit. Will keep up with alot of stuff on track. and is my fairly "comfortable" daily drive too :) did have an xsi final drive too but found it too short for daily use for what if any it gained me in preformance


Standard car with uprated pads and good tyres is a more then capable machine to start with then just loose some weight from it and go from there imo


PS have written this assuming you havent done much track driving before but if you have sorry just tell me to go stick it haha

Nail on the head there i think.

[jsdvtr]

if your worried about motorway driving on a track car id rethink your whole setup....
a motorway car will never make a great track car.. vice versa

Well it wont be when it gets took offroad, it will just be a track/weekend car when its finished. Im going to get something else for daily.

I would go for a standard vts lump with breathing mods (give you circa 135-140bhp) and then spend the rest on handling, cage and weight loss.

Standard engine will give more then enough grunt to get you started on track with a car of around 850kg. Plus with standard cams you will have a wider powerband and will make it more driver friendly for a newbie to track.

I use a full interiored VTS on track with bilstien suspension, GTI-6 brakes, S2 box with quaife ATB, 4-1 manni, magnex catback and enclosed induction kit. Will keep up with alot of stuff on track. and is my fairly "comfortable" daily drive too :) did have an xsi final drive too but found it too short for daily use for what if any it gained me in preformance


Standard car with uprated pads and good tyres is a more then capable machine to start with then just loose some weight from it and go from there imo


PS have written this assuming you havent done much track driving before but if you have sorry just tell me to go stick it haha


Thanks for that info mate, will be alot of help on my setup.

What sort of spec would you guys go for? In comparison to to the one i have choosen. Im going to do a track setup suspension setup also in other section if anyone would like to help also with that. Thanks :y:

[jsdvtr]

What is to be gained from a lightweight alloy pulley i.e. The one off kam??

[axsaxoman]

There is also a company near me, lancaster engines that is meant to be really good and they do any work and meant to be good priced to so may get head ported and polished, etc.

What bodies should i go for, at or jenveys?? What lenght would you reccomend?

paying for s1 box and lsd this weekend which im looking forward to getting fitted tbh, but its got the rallye final drive rather than being changed. How hard is it to get it changed?

Also going to get a very good suspension setup.

If you are considering jenveys then you should check out our gmc/atp units ,
better price ,on the shelf will use all std fuel rail ,cable fuel reg etc from car .look ten times better ,and have made over 200bhp on a race engine ,but are different shape which give wonderful drivability when mapped correctly even around town .
the ideal choice for your road /track car ,.
you want to talk about engine spec etc give me a a ring .
some of the advice you have been given in previous posts are not wholly correct .
if its been done to any form of TU engine from 1204cc -1800cc we have done it over the last 20 years

[axsaxoman]

What is to be gained from a lightweight alloy pulley i.e. The one off kam??
nothing to be gained worth talking about and if you intend to keep to hydraulic lifters ,which means no more than 7800rpm ,then no need except for purpose built out +out race car looking for last 1-2bhp.
just bling and as they are not anodised will soon loose the shine after first winter with salt on the road

[axsaxoman]

The higher compression pistons will aid power as well as torque. Going oversize will aid more torque IMO.

With PH4's, you'll definitely require harder valve springs. Newman do them... Stock hydraulic lifters are fine, as maximum power is typically achieved around 7600rpm.
std springs are fine at any rpm suitable for hydraulic lifters--not a bad thing changing them ,but not the top of the list if cost is an issue
stronger springs mean more power is consumed to lift the valves!!!

[Toad]

std springs are fine at any rpm suitable for hydraulic lifters--not a bad thing changing them ,but not the top of the list if cost is an issue
stronger springs mean more power is consumed to lift the valves!!!

Very fair point. But say 7800rpm, that's almost 600rpm past where the limiter would normally sit. The stiffer springs would reduce the chance of valve float around the limit mark I suppose. Worth it also if he's planning on using bigger valves wouldn't you have thought?

[jsdvtr]

What sort of rpm should have the limiter raised too?? What is thec standard vts one as ive still got vtr clocks and i only take it slightly past redline on them because not to sure what it is but knows its abit more than vtr.

What sort of rpm range for peak power should i sort of aim at for the sort of build i am going for?

Say if i was to go for- ph3/708, at bodies, 4 branch, supersprint system. I know it should be rounghly 160bhp but what other things would go well with it i.e. ported+polished head to compliment parts fitted and make most out of the engine??

[Toad]

Typically, I see most 708's produce max BHP at around 7200rpm. Although, different manifolds, exhaust systems and cam timing cam alter where max power is achieved.

I wouldn't bother with modifying the head. Just make sure whoever is building your engine knows how to get the best compression ratio available, and doesn't stick a massive headgasket on.

[jsdvtr]

Well if i do get it rebuilt it will be going either where i got the engine swap done or another place and they both build rally cars and have a very good rep, also lad motorsport is 5 mins from my house.

Should i go for 708's or ph3 cam's??

[Toad]

For whatever reason, Pug1Off (using NHM's rollers) have had better success with PH3's over 708s.

[willsy]

For whatever reason, Pug1Off (using NHM's rollers) have had better success with PH3's over 708s.

Always going to be swings and roundabouts with them really, both so similar.

Too many other factors can sway it either way

[jsdvtr]

For whatever reason, Pug1Off (using NHM's rollers) have had better success with PH3's over 708s.

So ph3 would be a better cam to go for. What are the piper 285's like??

Always going to be swings and roundabouts with them really, both so similar.

Too many other factors can sway it either way

What sort of advantages/disadvantages??

[raunchz]

So ph3 would be a better cam to go for. What are the piper 285's like??

What sort of advantages/disadvantages??

Urm .......................

Newmans PH3's

Duration Inlet - 264degrees
Duration Exhaust - 264degrees
Valve Lift Inlet - 10.15mm
Valve Lift Exhaust - 10.15mm
Timing Inlet - 22-62
Timing Exhaust - 62-22
Peak Angle Inlet - 110degrees
Peak Angle Exhaust - 110degrees

CatCam 708's

Duration Inlet (@0.1mm) - 256degrees
Duration Exhaust (@0.1mm) - 256degrees
Valve Lift Inlet - 10.00mm
Valve Lift Exhaust - 10.00mm
Timing Inlet (@1mm) - 5-45
Timing Exhaust (@1mm) - 41-9
Peak Angle Inlet - 110degrees
Peak Angle Exhaust - 106degrees

Piper BP285's

Duration Inlet - 264degrees
Duration Exhaust - 260degrees
Valve Lift Inlet - 10.06mm
Valve Lift Exhaust - 9.65mm
Timing Inlet - 22-62
Timing Exhaust - 64-16
Peak Angle Inlet - 110degrees
Peak Angle Exhaust - 114degrees


There's your comparison of the cams - the catcams spec is slightly different to the other two as it lists the various measurements at different points of lift. The best comparison would be to overlay the camshaft profiles (in terms of lift) on a graph to see how they differed (Sandy Brown has compared some camshafts but it's not my place to copy his graphs and post them up on here - anyone who is a member on a couple of the french car forums will have seen the graphs I'm sure), the above specs give a rough idea of the comparions between them.

[KamRacing]

What is to be gained from a lightweight alloy pulley i.e. The one off kam??

nothing to be gained worth talking about and if you intend to keep to hydraulic lifters ,which means no more than 7800rpm ,then no need except for purpose built out +out race car looking for last 1-2bhp.
just bling and as they are not anodised will soon loose the shine after first winter with salt on the road

We list them as race items for this reason. Its about looking at the bigger picture with the engine and with a systematic approach over the whole engine to dealing with parasitic losses can give a significant advantage. I'm sure if people want it to be bling they can polish them but thats not really their point.

[jsdvtr]

We list them as race items for this reason. Its about looking at the bigger picture with the engine and with a systematic approach over the whole engine to dealing with parasitic losses can give a significant advantage. I'm sure if people want it to be bling they can polish them but thats not really their point.

So not much point then.

Should i look at getting a baffled sump? Not something that shouldnt be over looked imo, engine not getting the oil its needed could be a very bad thing.
Was also thinking of getting oil temp/pres guages so i know when the engine is at the right temp, etc.

[axsaxoman]

for track use --yes for road use ??

[jsdvtr]

for track use --yes for road use ??

The car will be used for both but it'l be mostly used for track because i dont want to be paying insurance all year round when it wont be getting used all the time.

[gavin_t]

unless you fit something like 888's and drive it hard on long sweeping bends baffled sump wouldnt be needed. But if your going the whole hog you might as well for peice of mind

[jsdvtr]

Would it be worth getting a c2 head as seems to be alot of people going n/a fitting them because of the bigger inlets.

What things should i go for about cams/bodies/mani/system which would roughly be running about 160bhp but to get abit more what other things should i look at??

What sort of cost would be ph4 over ph3? Buying low comp pistons,etc.

[jsdvtr]

Im looking at getting a baffled sump soon if going to be doing some track days. This is something that i want my car to have tbh, oil starvation is something i dont want and have to end up rebuilding the engine or something when i have got a good engine to start with.

Just want to know where and how much i can get one for, how do i go about fitting?

[raunchz]

Gmc (Peugeot Sport France one), constella, hiflowheads heads.

Between £100-£230ish

Fitting varies - depends on which one you are looking to buy.

[Mochachino]

Theres a few places that sell them..

http://www.specialtuninguk.co.uk/index.htm

http://www.constella.co.uk/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=15&Itemid=28

or make your own.

[jsdvtr]

Thanks guys :y:

[jsdvtr]

Im also stuck for what ecu to get as the 3plug pred is taking ages and doesnt seem to be going anywhere. What can i buy for my 3 plug or can i buy i.e. a kms and the plug to go into it and get a loom made up?

[KamRacing]

Get a proper mappable setup like Emerald or DTA. They have a lot more load sites for better mapping.

[axsaxoman]

Im also stuck for what ecu to get as the 3plug pred is taking ages and doesnt seem to be going anywhere. What can i buy for my 3 plug or can i buy i.e. a kms and the plug to go into it and get a loom made up?

3plug car --ecu runs the water temp ,cooling fan + dash--so its easier to fit a stand alone unit .
predator + vesm both will be plug+n+P ,but vems still haven,t sorted out the temp gauge problem adn predator is not available at this time
when you decide who is going to do it ,then that will rpobably decide what ecu you go for .

[AndySAXO]

hi flow heads do a baffle sump, which involed sending the sump off to get it welded in, it just one plate with gaps.

i am think about doing a few trail baffled sump myself, as i think it can be done for a cheap price than 85 quid Plus vat!

andy

[jsdvtr]

What ecus are available for my car then? The only other thing i could think of it fitting single plug loom to engine and would have more scope for ecu.

Is there much difference between the kms, dta, omex as know those 3 are the most popular ones. Id look to having ecu in car to tidy bay up abit.

[jsdvtr]

Been looking at the omex 600 ecu, and buy the loom on spoox and have a custom loom in the bay. There seems to be alot of features and stuff on the omex and seems a very good bit of kit.

[jsdvtr]

Looking at getting some cams soon, think ph3 or 708.

Then save for some bodies then save for ecu but not sure which to go for??
Id like the omex 600 and have a custom loom but then its just getting all the wiring and plugs put onto the loom.

When using a new loom do you need any of the original loom so can get rid of it and tidy up the bay abit?

Any got any pics of a omex with custom loom in there bay?

What is the megasquirt ecu's like?

[Mochachino]

So hang on, what are you doing to your car?

So far you got:

Your Supercharging Thread (http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324565)

Your Turbo'ing Thread (http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306758)

and now cams and boddies? Or you doing all of these? :S :S

[raunchz]

Lol

The engine loom contains wiring needed for the dash so can't get rid of it all.

[KamRacing]

who is going to map the car.
Most decent aftermarket ecu's, DTA, Emerald, Motec, Omex etc will all do what you need.
You need to find the right business to work on it and see what they are good at.
Theres no point fitting a Motec if you have to move the car 500miles to find a specialist mapper, when another business specialising in DTA is down the road...

[jsdvtr]

I dont know where i'll would end up getting it mapped up at, any suggestions around north west area would be good, it'll probably be into early next year when get bodies, ecu, etc as wanting to get a few other parts aswell.

Im going for bodies but was just courious of supercharging as depending on the future of the car may look into it further if i ever get bored of the power from n/a engine.

[raunchz]

I dont know where i'll would end up getting it mapped up at, any suggestions around north west area would be good, it'll probably be into early next year when get bodies, ecu, etc as wanting to get a few other parts aswell.

Im going for bodies but was just courious of supercharging as depending on the future of the car may look into it further if i ever get bored of the power from n/a engine.

North west area I'd maybe look at Chipwizards or go up to GMC.

I'd make your mind on the setup you want and go for it, going one way and then changing can be a bit expensive if you don't fit it all yourself. The labour and mapping costs can be high.

[jsdvtr]

Id go for the pred but seems like the 3plug version is never going to exist.

[boz]

i would try and set your ideas in stone bud, as some of the higher spec cams will be too wild for a boosted engine, so if you went down that route you would end up wasting cash. same goes for the high comp pistons if you were going down the N/A route, they would need to be ditched in place of low comp items for running boost.

best thing to do IMHO would be to spend your cash on a really good suspension and brake setup,
AST setup allround, Bigger arb, Bigger torsion bars, poly bushed all round, strut braces, lighten the chasis by stripping back uneeded items. maybe even a set of R888 tyres and an ATB diff

you will have an awesome handling car, then decide from then on what route you want to take and stick with it.

a good handling car wont need changing for N/A or boosted ;D

[jsdvtr]

Well when i think at how quick my car is atm and with the add of bodies and cams would be quick enough for track for deffinate and if went boost id have to sacrifice maybe with a less of chassis mods and 160bhp roughly and get cars weight down to about 850-800kg would be plenty quick enough.

I already have s1 box with quife and its awesome fun and car is stripped just needs some weight spacing around the car like battery and washer bottle and more weight loss like bonnet and windows.

[3cott]

Ecu side of things
Ide go for a dta s40 with sandy dta race loom

[boz]

i removed the sunroof from my car and also the extra pressed metal from the insides of the doors, the parts where the door cards mount to, removed the shard edges and was going to fit a rubber seal around it to stop and cuts etc.
you will be surprised as to how heavy the sunroof is and also how light the doors are with most of the metal removed, door bar from the cage sits across this bit so you have plenty of protection.
removed the spare wheel, the dash, the bonnet in place of a carbon one, next on the agenda was going to be remove all glass for polycarbs and fit a fibre glass boot, chop the loom down to the bare minimun, only fit 1 bucket seat and cut away as much crap from behind the bumpers etc.

thats going on the extreme side, but it was only going to be for a track car :D

its easy to shed the weight, just depands on how extreme you want to go lol

[raunchz]

If you've got a diffed s1 box then you really have to stick with an na setup.

I'd look at high comps with ph4s/bp300H/734s

[jsdvtr]

If you've got a diffed s1 box then you really have to stick with an na setup.

I'd look at high comps with ph4s/bp300H/734s

Well i think imn going to get the bodies before cams and ecu and mostc expensive thing so can get that out the way then get cams then ecu when decided which to go for. Im happy with the apex atm until i do start doing track work and alot of it.

[Ryan]

Well i think imn going to get the bodies before cams and ecu and mostc expensive thing so can get that out the way then get cams then ecu when decided which to go for. Im happy with the apex atm until i do start doing track work and alot of it.

So you plan to fit bodies.. which requires mapping and really an ecu..

then fit the cams, which requires mapping again.

:wacko:

[rushy_23]

Not a dig mate, but it just seems you have no idea what you really want to do! Have you tried your car as it is on track yet? Do you know what you want to improve.

[jsdvtr]

I do know what i want to do with the car and what is needed, ive read up alot on peoples threads and all other info about n/a engines. And i think you have taken what i said the wrong way, i wll buy the bodies first as most expensive things them get cams then ecu then save for mapping and get it all fitted when come to getting mapped.

[Ryan]

most places you can get a 'kit' with the bodies and ecu.

For example the jenvey omex package.

[rushy_23]

But you have mentioned superchargers in another thread.

Well when i think at how quick my car is atm and with the add of bodies and cams would be quick enough for track for deffinate

Why cant you take your car out on track as it is? Cars dont need ITB's just to be on track. Id say being out there will help you decide more what you want rather than window shopping in "progress threads".
I shouldnt have butted in but I see your undecisive comments all over the place LOL.

[jsdvtr]

most places you can get a 'kit' with the bodies and ecu.

For example the jenvey omex package.

Where can you ge those from? Id preferably want jenvey and omex 600 as thats what ive got my mind setup but was thinkig the at power ones as people have had good gains from them.

[raunchz]

Depending on the cams you go for,

Fit the cams first, get them timed up on standard Ecu, maybe shove a 3.5Bar fpr on there and it should run okay.

Then if you like the power delivery then go bodies and Ecu and get it all mapped up.

If you don't like it then save up for a boost setup (sell cams and s1 box)

[Mochachino]

most places you can get a 'kit' with the bodies and ecu.

For example the jenvey omex package.

+

I do know what i want to do with the car and what is needed, ive read up alot on peoples threads and all other info about n/a engines.


=

Where can you ge those from?

I dont mean to be a cunt mate, but i think you need to do alot more reading and take action in the right steps. Have you taken any of the advice taken from the 'track suspension' thread you made?

As rushy has said you dont need bodies, like it isnt rule that you have to have bodies and power to go on the track.

Im perfectly happy with VTR power and is fine on a track, a turbo is the next step, but only as abit of a project not because i need or have to have it.

Why did you sell them turbo parts you had, then make a thread about going turbo? Should have just persued that imo.

[jsdvtr]

Well i havent sold them as no one seems to want them atm. I want bodies because of the noise and better throttle responce and fact that accelerate is better than just being cammed. Suspension wise i will being ging with atleast billie group ns and raising car upto 40mm as at 50 atm.

[jsdvtr]

Depending on the cams you go for,

Fit the cams first, get them timed up on standard Ecu, maybe shove a 3.5Bar fpr on there and it should run okay.

Then if you like the power delivery then go bodies and Ecu and get it all mapped up.

If you don't like it then save up for a boost setup (sell cams and s1 box)

Is there much difference in the way the power comes when uprating cams with being wilder than standard? I know they'd be more peaky.

The car seems to just sort of suddenly kick with the s1 box and about 4500-5k and its pretty good fun.

How come you've suggested using a 3.5bar FPR rather than not using one, Rather than turn cams -2 degrees?

[Ryan]

Is there much difference in the way the power comes when uprating cams with being wilder than standard? I know they'd be more peaky.


Yes its alot more savage.

[raunchz]

Is there much difference in the way the power comes when uprating cams with being wilder than standard? I know they'd be more peaky.

The car seems to just sort of suddenly kick with the s1 box and about 4500-5k and its pretty good fun.

How come you've suggested using a 3.5bar FPR rather than not using one, Rather than turn cams -2 degrees?

You should time the cams up as per their spec before doing anything else.

Fitting a slightly larger fpr might just help the fueling higher up. It's a bit crude but will help the max injector duty too

[jsdvtr]

Yes its alot more savage.

Awesome :)

[VTSTomE]

Just fit the wildest cams you can on standard bottom end and inlet eg 708s ph3s. Then see how you like it with the s1 box and a sorted suspension/braking setup. I'm sure you wouldn't be disappointed. Decent rubber for track also!

[jsdvtr]

You should time the cams up as per their spec before doing anything else.

Fitting a slightly larger fpr might just help the fueling higher up. It's a bit crude but will help the max injector duty too

Well would be needing one anyway wont i? Or should i uprated the injectors to 1*2 if and when get bodies?

Coming onto bodies, should i go for at power or jenveys and what lenght?

What sort of price is it for bottom end rebuild? Or full? As would need head doing too if go wild cams and high comps.

[3cott]

Where can you ge those from? Id preferably want jenvey and omex 600 as thats what ive got my mind setup but was thinkig the at power ones as people have had good gains from them.Have a look on spoox web site
They do a jenvey & omex 600 "kit" its £2000 iirc

[AndySAXO]

i just fitted my s1 box to my bodies vts and have to say it rev like mad!! it crazy stuff....

i did a track session with apex and didnt like it, so i changed, i try stuff out before just going the full hog striaght away ( can't stand this thread that go on for years and years and never get used )


i basiclly i try the car and just changed thing to suit me!! Dont forget that it down to you aswell not just putting all the expensive bits on!

[jsdvtr]

i just fitted my s1 box to my bodies vts and have to say it rev like mad!! it crazy stuff....

i did a track session with apex and didnt like it, so i changed, i try stuff out before just going the full hog striaght away ( can't stand this thread that go on for years and years and never get used )


i basiclly i try the car and just changed thing to suit me!! Dont forget that it down to you aswell not just putting all the expensive bits on!

What you mean mate that thread never get used?

I wish i could afford all the expensive bits lol but i cant so thats why i havent on my car, i do intend to change the stuff im not happy with and build the car how i want it but imo i want more power as its fairly quick but for the price of some cams, 4 branch, etc its worth it and my car handles pretty well and stops too but i will then be improving that with better pads(for track) as only have standards in atm and stiffer suspension when coming to using car abit more hardcore on track days.

[AndySAXO]

it not always the best thing to do just buy loads of expensive bits for the car!!

dont always listen to people saying you need this bit you need that bit... need to use the car for what you want to use it for. and see what feel right for you, not others!!

also i dont like this car that have had loads of money put into it... and never used... like a few on here!! dont get me wrong will be very nice cars!! but end of the day they are biult for track fun!! and never get used as always been biult.. not used!!

what i am trying to say is use the car... instead of keep change parts because people tell you too.

that the reason i like toads and dan 106 on shed the most atleast they where used for what they where biult for!!

[jsdvtr]

it not always the best thing to do just buy loads of expensive bits for the car!!

dont always listen to people saying you need this bit you need that bit... need to use the car for what you want to use it for. and see what feel right for you, not others!!

also i dont like this car that have had loads of money put into it... and never used... like a few on here!! dont get me wrong will be very nice cars!! but end of the day they are biult for track fun!! and never get used as always been biult.. not used!!

what i am trying to say is use the car... instead of keep change parts because people tell you too.

that the reason i like toads and dan 106 on shed the most atleast they where used for what they where biult for!!

Im deffo not going to be buying stuff because people tell me too. I want a stiffer suspension in the future because it feels too soft for my liking and want a good suspension setup because i want to get the car to handle as well as i can get it too with in my budget. I definately dont throw money at my car as i dont have heaps of cash to do so but next year i will definately be getting some track and 1/4 miles done.

[raunchz]

I'm just speaking generally here,

I think looking at peoples specs is a good way of gauging what works and what doesn't - although there is a little bit of the fashion theme with specing your car up.

Another great way on making up your own mind as to what spec you want, how stiff you want it etc. is to go out in peoples cars and feel how their car is before you buy your setup - you don't have to do 1000mph but you can get an idea of how bumpy/stiff it is on normal roads at normal speeds.

When spending thousands, having a 5-10min ride in someone else's car can save you a lot of money if you think it doesn't really meet your expectation. I'd happily take someone out in mine for 5mins if it helped them make their choice as to what engine spec/suspension setup they would like to go for.

The other way is to start off doing tracktime/pushing your car in its standard form, then as parts begin to feel restricting, upgrade them. Like if you are cooking your brakes all the time, then this will be an area you'll want to upgrade - it may just be better fluid and pads, or a 266mm setup or go for 4 pots.

Likewise with suspension. I like to upgrade parts as they break/get old - so if it fails an MOT due to play in a bush, upgrade the bush to a polybush - kill 2 birds with one stone.

Engine wise is a difficult choice, you really need to decide on what you want and then just go for it - don't half heartedly go for a spec as it'll end up costing you double in the long run.

[AndySAXO]

that is the point i was trying to say ross... just thing people focus too much on how much can i spend!! dnt have to use the most expensive parts... need to biuld to your style of dirving and how you want it work handle... ect.

just trying to help you dude.. :y:

[jsdvtr]

that is the point i was trying to say ross... just thing people focus too much on how much can i spend!! dnt have to use the most expensive parts... need to biuld to your style of dirving and how you want it work handle... ect.

just trying to help you dude.. :y:

Ye i know mate and very appreciated, i try to get as much info on stuff before going ahead and buying the parts.

[rushy_23]

There is some very confusing English/Grammar in this thread!

Andy, I see your points, but your stereo typing that every person that wants to spend money on a Saxo/106 is destined to "trackday" their cars..

Also arent you the guy that went back to have his car mapped after "just" fitting uprated pistons? ;)


Each to their own I say, it just seems that the opening poster has no real idea what he wants which was what I was pointing out.
Sounds like he litterally plows through progress threads, ask what "that" is and then add it to a long wishlist.

[jsdvtr]

I have decided im going to be getting engine wise from top to bottom i will be buying-

1. Supersprint race system - Soon
2. 4 branch manifold (heatwrapped) - Soon
3. Ph3 or 708 cams + 3.5Bar FPR
4. Oil cooler + thermo sandwich plate
5. Baffled sump - when start track days
6. Jenvey/ At power bodies
7. Standalone ecu - Omex 600
8. Fitting + Mapping

[jsdvtr]

There is some very confusing English/Grammar in this thread!

Andy, I see your points, but your stereo typing that every person that wants to spend money on a Saxo/106 is destined to "trackday" their cars..

Also arent you the guy that went back to have his car mapped after "just" fitting uprated pistons? ;)


Each to their own I say, it just seems that the opening poster has no real idea what he wants which was what I was pointing out.
Sounds like he litterally plows through progress threads, ask what "that" is and then add it to a long wishlist.

Everything that will be on my wish list will be on there for a very good reason, not because someone else has got it by what people seem to think i am doing. Yes i might have a big wish list but its only me thats knows how big but that is because i plan on keeping the car for a long time rather than just a year or so. But its not just like the engine i will be spending, i want to get the car as mint inside and out as i can because i am quite into my detailing also and enjoy cleaning, etc the car.

[raunchz]

I have decided im going to be getting engine wise from top to bottom i will be buying-

1. Supersprint race system - Soon
2. 4 branch manifold (heatwrapped) - Soon
- Brakes and suspension as you see fit
3. Ph3 or 708 cams + 3.5Bar FPR
4. Oil cooler + thermo sandwich plate
5. Baffled sump - when start track days
- Some nice tyres
6. Jenvey/ At power bodies
7. Standalone ecu - Omex 600
8. Fitting + Mapping

Sounds a good sequence to be buying things - I'd add the above items in.

[AndySAXO]

yer that my point... i didnt see the point in doing all that to my engine stright away.. i did as i could afford it... that the reason i did that so i could use my car for what it built for... instead of just throwing aload of money at it.. and not been able to use it like some on here!! i mean i there a few thread i seen that are years old and never even seen the road yet :S come on need to use the car!!

so i did when i could get it done, and so it wouldnt be out of use for long period of time

and i only every paid for one mapping session :P so haha :D

andy

[rushy_23]

Everything that will be on my wish list will be on there for a very good reason, not because someone else has got it by what people seem to think i am doing. Yes i might have a big wish list but its only me thats knows how big but that is because i plan on keeping the car for a long time rather than just a year or so. But its not just like the engine i will be spending, i want to get the car as mint inside and out as i can because i am quite into my detailing also and enjoy cleaning, etc the car.

You just said yourself a few posts back that you know what you want cause you researched via other progress threads.

I havent implied anything about the duration you will keep the car or about cleaning it lol!

Totally lost now. I was merely saying that you seem very indecisive in your decision making. Hence maybe take a step back, actually book a trackday (as this is your main goal) and see what you want to change from your car there on out.
You may be suprised how much fun you actually have WITHOUT all those extra performance parts.

Again something that was echo'ed in Waynes thread, how can you possibly build a car if you dont "physically" know what you want and need next? Im not trying to rip you, I feel its good advice? Reading through what Ive written about its sounding like Im however hating.

Will leave that as my final thought ;)

yer that my point... i didnt see the point in doing all that to my engine stright away.. i did as i could afford it... that the reason i did that so i could use my car for what it built for... instead of just throwing aload of money at it.. and not been able to use it like some on here!! i mean i there a few thread i seen that are years old and never even seen the road yet :S come on need to use the car!!

so i did when i could get it done, and so it wouldnt be out of use for long period of time

and i only every paid for one mapping session :P so haha :D

andy

it not always the best thing to do just buy loads of expensive bits for the car!!

I picked up on that above comment and thought, wait a minute.. Didnt Andy buy pistons and have his car remapped just for that addition modification!

Okay my bad.

I think you should name and shame, I expect my name to be on the list. All I can say from a personal point of view is people go through phases, but ultimately fall out of love.
But thats the reason these people should really sell up and move on.


Anyways, main point is all thses cars that get "built" arent all destined for track mate. I think thats a huge misconception on this forum.

[jsdvtr]

Sounds a good sequence to be buying things - I'd add the above items in.

Well ive got gti6 setup but will upgrading pads at only using ebc standard ones atm with braided lines and mintex discs.

Suspension wise i have got new bushes to go on but will do later when change suspension. Im thinking group n billie as seem to be v good for the money and would probably be upto what i'll be using car for and faulkner springs.

yer that my point... i didnt see the point in doing all that to my engine stright away.. i did as i could afford it... that the reason i did that so i could use my car for what it built for... instead of just throwing aload of money at it.. and not been able to use it like some on here!! i mean i there a few thread i seen that are years old and never even seen the road yet :S come on need to use the car!!

so i did when i could get it done, and so it wouldnt be out of use for long period of time

and i only every paid for one mapping session :P so haha :D

andy

Well id be happy with it being cam'd tbh and get weight down abit but only really reason i want bodies is because of the noise and if im sticking n/a i may aswell get it done in the future. That why i didnt end up going boost because i want car to be reliable and not be spending even more when things go wrong and with the money i end up spending on engine alone could be spent elsewhere on the car.

I am glad there are some people on here willing to give very good advice and thats something raunchz is very good at, willing to help and i have learn alot from the info he has given me and alsort of stuff :y:

[willsy]

I havn't really read through too much of this thread (so appologies firstly if ive missed some points) although from a very quick observation you seem to be more focused at this moment in time in getting a decent spec engine which will cost at the very least £2k+, yet so far you've not given as much consideration to chassis and handling.

Its been seen time and time again that lesser powered cars when put together right can quite easily piss all over a higher powered one with inferior chassis spec if they have spent time and effort on handling.

Certainly on a shorter and more twisty track you'll benefit so much more from having a good well balanced suspension, brake, tyre combination to keep the speed more through the corners than you ever will from gaining extra bhp.

[jsdvtr]

You just said yourself a few posts back that you know what you want cause you researched via other progress threads.

I havent implied anything about the duration you will keep the car or about cleaning it lol!

Totally lost now. I was merely saying that you seem very indecisive in your decision making. Hence maybe take a step back, actually book a trackday (as this is your main goal) and see what you want to change from your car there on out.
You may be suprised how much fun you actually have WITHOUT all those extra performance parts.

Again something that was echo'ed in Waynes thread, how can you possibly build a car if you dont "physically" know what you want and need next? Im not trying to rip you, I feel its good advice? Reading through what Ive written about its sounding like Im however hating.

Will leave that as my final thought ;)

Finding out about supercharging was just a thought i had as was going to go boost a year ago but i havent got bags of money to throw at the car so in my eyes the money would be better spent elsewhere that would go into just the engine. Going boost is not going to happen, end of lol.

Yes i will start doing some track days next year but atm i feel cars isnt ready for the abuse, I want to give it a good service, new tires, better brake pads, new beam needed and also sort all the niggles out that is wrong with the car.

[jsdvtr]

I havn't really read through too much of this thread (so appologies firstly if ive missed some points) although from a very quick observation you seem to be more focused at this moment in time in getting a decent spec engine which will cost at the very least £2k+, yet so far you've not given as much consideration to chassis and handling.

Its been seen time and time again that lesser powered cars when put together right can quite easily piss all over a higher powered one with inferior chassis spec if they have spent time and effort on handling.

Certainly on a shorter and more twisty track you'll benefit so much more from having a good well balanced suspension, brake, tyre combination to keep the speed more through the corners than you ever will from gaining extra bhp.

Im hoping start of next year before do any track days i should be running billie group ns and get car raised up 10mm to 40mm. The chassis is something thatl probably get the most attention but i just would like some good breathing mods and cams and id be happy, getting bodies isnt a nessesity for me to have for track, itl be something i'll be getting in the future.

I will be changing all bushes to poly bushes, just need uprated top engine mount then thats engine mounts changed. Will get track wheels with either very good road or track tires then just pads to change and 5.1 dot fluid. Will also be getting rid of some weight i.e. fibreglass bonnet and poly windows and spacing out the weight inside the car to make it more even to reduce under steer.

[rushy_23]

Last dig I swear - So you pretty much want everything off the shelf, before you hit tracktime ;)

More on topic, with regards to ECU choice I think whom is doing the work is a strong deciding factor. Pug1off - Emerald, Sandy - DTA etc etc.

[Jak_Vts]

I will agree with whats being said really focus more on suspension tyres and brakes rather than power. My car has decent suspension and braking mods no modifications to the engine apart from exhaust system, and on the track on friday it upset a lot of higher powered cars. Get on track as soon as you can expierence and technique will make you faster than any engine mods, just my thoughts anyway.

[Mochachino]

Wouldnt it give you more satisfaction telling other poeple on the track that you have a standard engine, than going through a long list of k's worth of parts as to why you were keeping up or keeping a faster pace?

Standard R power is enough for me lol :oops:

[jsdvtr]

Last dig I swear - So you pretty much want everything off the shelf, before you hit tracktime ;)

More on topic, with regards to ECU choice I think whom is doing the work is a strong deciding factor. Pug1off - Emerald, Sandy - DTA etc etc.

I want a good suspension set up for a start as the apex is ok for normal road use but when comes to using the car hard it lacks in stiffness, its more for the everyday driver rather than car getting used on track. Plus things like uprated pads, oil cooler, baffled sump things like these i will get so i know the engine will be ok driving it hard out on track.

The omex 600 seems to be a very good ecu and more popular than like of dta, emarald and kms arent used anymore. Must be for a good reason.

I will agree with whats being said really focus more on suspension tyres and brakes rather than power. My car has decent suspension and braking mods no modifications to the engine apart from exhaust system, and on the track on friday it upset a lot of higher powered cars. Get on track as soon as you can expierence and technique will make you faster than any engine mods, just my thoughts anyway.

Well like i said those things definately wont be getting missed out :y:

[rushy_23]

I agree KMS seem to have fizzed out. Emerald are still used by Pug1off from what I know. Sandy Brown uses DTA.

Again mate your focusing your points of view on what you see in progress threads (on the Omex 600). It all depends on who sets up the cars mate. Pretty much all of the above will do practically the same thing for an N/A engine. KMS I've never personally been a fan of.


its more for the everyday driver rather than car getting used on track

How can you say that if you have never driven on track? Head & brick wall spring to mind at this stage lol.


I hate to use myself as an example but Ive driven on track without:
- oil cooler
- catch tank
- good tyres
- ITBs

Ghetto as fuck, but I know the car was track worthy as it was ROAD worthy, ironically I was running Apex springs at the time also! How about that eh.
And mate I can assure you it went fine, I did have a baffled sump but this isnt something you need unless you have a pretty wild spec car and running at least semi slicks.

Okay I promise mate this is the final bit of jiff I shall post. But you keep giving me further ammo to fire back! I am seriously giving you GOOD advice here but its obvious you cant see it.

[3cott]

If you go to chipwizards wayne can map DTA if you decide to use that ecu
He mapped joelb's tb rally

[jsdvtr]

I agree KMS seem to have fizzed out. Emerald are still used by Pug1off from what I know. Sandy Brown uses DTA.

Again mate your focusing your points of view on what you see in progress threads (on the Omex 600). It all depends on who sets up the cars mate. Pretty much all of the above will do practically the same thing for an N/A engine. KMS I've never personally been a fan of.




How can you say that if you have never driven on track? Head & brick wall spring to mind at this stage lol.


I hate to use myself as an example but Ive driven on track without:
- oil cooler
- catch tank
- good tyres
- ITBs

Ghetto as fuck, but I know the car was track worthy as it was ROAD worthy, ironically I was running Apex springs at the time also! How about that eh.
And mate I can assure you it went fine, I did have a baffled sump but this isnt something you need unless you have a pretty wild spec car and running at least semi slicks.

Okay I promise mate this is the final bit of jiff I shall post. But you keep giving me further ammo to fire back! I am seriously giving you GOOD advice here but its obvious you cant see it.

I take everyones advice into account especially if theyve been out on track, etc.

I feel the apex are too soft when using car hard on road i.e in the corners and down the back roads, and thats on road not the track driving it harder.

I live 5 mins from lad motorsport and he has got a proper track car which is on bike bodies and dta, not sure where has had it mapped at though. But also have 2 garages near me and 1 build race cars/engines and other does more rally cars than normal cars and thats who fitted my vts engine.

[Tufty]

Lol, be sure you know what your getting yourself into here mate...

Im going for a high spec N/A track car... and i only have half the parts required... and i have spent 3800 pounds... Thats with group buys and a few favors... This does not include labour either..

My point is, its not cheap man...

good luck with it all though :y:

[Olly]

agree and disagree.

Its good to feel your way into things, Take it slow, Learn what you like/dont. But could mean changes every time you use the car, altering characteristics etc.

Or you could

get the car to a certain standard, then learn to drive it, And do exactly that, use it.
Seems to be a uber rule against building a car for a start then using it on this site..... Look at the wider picture, Prople have cars prepped all in one go, Wether it be themselves building up kitcars, rally cars, trackday cars, fast road, or having them built profesionally. Even if you shell out for a part and dont like it, doesnt mean you cant sell it on, Youve learnt something.

Book a day as it is, see how you get on. I hate using my VTR on track, Dont feel comfortable for quite a few reasons, Hence having a dedicated track car, which in essence, hopefully ill enjoy it more. I know i have building it.

[Olly]

Lol, be sure you know what your getting yourself into here mate...

Im going for a high spec N/A track car... and i only have half the parts required... and i have spent 3800 pounds... Thats with group buys and a few favors... This does not include labour either..

My point is, its not cheap man...

good luck with it all though :y:

If you still had that £3800 you could have jumped upon a right bargain.....:drink:

Hindsight is a terrible thing

[raunchz]

If you still had that £3800 you could have jumped upon a right bargain.....:drink:

Hindsight is a terrible thing

It is a bargain tbh, presume you're talking about Toads engine?

[AndySAXO]

right pug1off use them... but NMS map there cars!! and NMS dont like the Emerald as much as the oxem system...

pug1off dont map the cars just drop off at nms!! so maybe best going direct to NMS if that the way you want to do.

also rushy i got my pistons cheaper!! thanks to someone on here... worked out cheaper than buying + 0.2mm standard pistons... i wanted my bores walls to be good.. easier way to get a very good bore wall is to get them machined out.. i wanted to changed the pistons as my bottom end had alot of miles on it.. and want to get it fully re biult... also re biult it all myself.

also the high comps increased my mid range... wanst for the top end power i was trying to get my mid range higher for better exit from the corners as my old setup was very rubbish in the mid range so lost time coming out the corner at 4k!!

i ent name dropping anyone i think everyone know who they are.. dont get me wrong they will be nice cars.. just 3 4 year biult a track car?? which havnt been used yet?? come on!!

i have spent money on my car.. but didnt just spend 3 years spend loads of money without using it..

[jsdvtr]

Lol, be sure you know what your getting yourself into here mate...

Im going for a high spec N/A track car... and i only have half the parts required... and i have spent 3800 pounds... Thats with group buys and a few favors... This does not include labour either..

My point is, its not cheap man...

good luck with it all though :y:

I know it aint cheap lol but if you can find the parts you want cheap you save yourself some cash, i bought my quifed s1 box and omp full cage for bargain price probably both for just over what the box is worth and am really pleased with it and the deal i got.

agree and disagree.

Its good to feel your way into things, Take it slow, Learn what you like/dont. But could mean changes every time you use the car, altering characteristics etc.

Or you could

get the car to a certain standard, then learn to drive it, And do exactly that, use it.
Seems to be a uber rule against building a car for a start then using it on this site..... Look at the wider picture, Prople have cars prepped all in one go, Wether it be themselves building up kitcars, rally cars, trackday cars, fast road, or having them built profesionally. Even if you shell out for a part and dont like it, doesnt mean you cant sell it on, Youve learnt something.

Book a day as it is, see how you get on. I hate using my VTR on track, Dont feel comfortable for quite a few reasons, Hence having a dedicated track car, which in essence, hopefully ill enjoy it more. I know i have building it.

I fancy going to trax this year but doubt i will be going as have got a holiday to save for atm.

[AndySAXO]

toads engine is 3.5k so would be good to buy.

[rushy_23]

right pug1off use them... but NMS map there cars!! and NMS dont like the Emerald as much as the oxem system...

pug1off dont map the cars just drop off at nms!! so maybe best going direct to NMS if that the way you want to do.

also rushy i got my pistons cheaper!! thanks to someone on here... worked out cheaper than buying + 0.2mm standard pistons... i wanted my bores walls to be good.. easier way to get a very good bore wall is to get them machined out.. i wanted to changed the pistons as my bottom end had alot of miles on it.. and want to get it fully re biult... also re biult it all myself.

also the high comps increased my mid range... wanst for the top end power i was trying to get my mid range higher for better exit from the corners as my old setup was very rubbish in the mid range so lost time coming out the corner at 4k!!

i ent name dropping anyone i think everyone know who they are.. dont get me wrong they will be nice cars.. just 3 4 year biult a track car?? which havnt been used yet?? come on!!

i have spent money on my car.. but didnt just spend 3 years spend loads of money without using it..

Your first statement seems to be assuming that I DONT know that. Im aware that Northampton Motorsport map Pug1off's cars. And Im also aware that they choose Omex over Emerald. My comment didnt mention NHM, it was directed at Pug1off. All of there older builds use Emerald.. Okay this may have changed recently, but that previous statement is a fact.

Like I said above (with regards to the pistons), I retract my previous statement.

I'll just butt out of this thread cause its clear that my view point is getting all hazed over.

[AndySAXO]

Na just saying why go pug1off fnr just a ecu that they dnt map, they still use the emerld one. Just the guy mapping it like oxem better that all. I dnt see the point in going to pug1off for a ecu to be map by someone else.

Wasnt having a dig at you just thought I let the guy know that it nms that map pug1off car. So it would be easier to go to nms direct.

And I doing my car they way I have so I dnt have long period od time of the road, and get as much use as possible.