Plugs, Coilpack - Cleaned map sensor - New fuel filter - Problem Remains 19/12 #37

[JRC1]

So car has been running a bit lumpy, thought it was just the weather at first but decided to change the spark plugs as it got worse and started cutting out. Fitted brand new NGK spark plugs today but the problem still remains. Sounds rough and is lumpy and cuts out now and again when pulling away. After searching on here i'm led to believe it's the Coilpack so, where's the best place to buy a brand new 16v Coilpack?

Anything else it could be??

Cheers!

[02emichan]

i got mine for gsf car parts hasent let me down yet it was a valeo one so a good make

[SAM-S44MDS-]

Yea could be the coil pack mate :y:
ECP (eurocarparts)
Andrew page
BBC
GSF

Any of the above can supply at a decent price mate :y:

If all fails, dealer lol

[JRC1]

Yea could be the coil pack mate :y:
ECP (eurocarparts)
Andrew page
BBC
GSF

Any of the above can supply at a decent price mate :y:

If all fails, dealer lol

Cheers mate, i'll have a look at those.

I've just looked on ECP and there seems to be a few different ones that will all fit a VTS ranging from £40 to £150, are any better than others?

http://www.eurocarparts.com/search/coilpack/p/car-parts

[SAM-S44MDS-]

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Citroen_Saxo_1.6_2001/p/car-parts/engine-parts/ignition1/ignition-coil/?413735020&1&c12fc53caaee48b061b7a58ba49a4e096cbb8314&IGCO

This one pal.
That is the valeo unit for the TU5J4 (1.6 16v VTS) coil. Valeo is the best make, ARC are shite imo.

All the others that come up are for TU5JP (1.6 8v VTR)

[02emichan]

yes there are diffrent qualities off coil pack ecp do cheep and nasty tbh i have had nuffin but trouble with there parts but if ur gona go with them just make sure its a valeo one and if they give u a valeo box be sure the coilpack inside is the same make also a little tip if u go into gsf and get one and u say ur a member ov saxp they will give u 10 or 15% discount cant member witch one it is hope this helps

mike

[JRC1]

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Citroen_Saxo_1.6_2001/p/car-parts/engine-parts/ignition1/ignition-coil/?413735020&1&c12fc53caaee48b061b7a58ba49a4e096cbb8314&IGCO

This one pal.
That is the valeo unit for the TU5J4 (1.6 16v VTS) coil. Valeo is the best make, ARC are shite imo.

All the others that come up are for TU5JP (1.6 8v VTR)

Ah ok nice one mate. I thought that would be the right one, just didn't think they were that expensive :fcuk:

They've got one on GSF for £103, but it doesn't say whether it's Valeo or not, so i'm guessing it probably isn't :n:

[SAM-S44MDS-]

Ah ok nice one mate. I thought that would be the right one, just didn't think they were that expensive :fcuk:

They've got one on GSF for £103, but it doesn't say whether it's Valeo or not, so i'm guessing it probably isn't :n:

Coil packs for 16v are expensive :n: You can use the ARC one if you want which is like £50 ish. The problem is it WONT last very long, you buy cheap you buy twice so they say. The valeo will be spot on. Best bet for GSF mate is just give them a bell and check what make it is. IIRC you also get extra discount at GSF for being a saxp member ;) so if it is valeo your onto a winner, tbh I think it will be a valeo, GSF usually do use valeo products :y:

[JRC1]

Coil packs for 16v are expensive :n: You can use the ARC one if you want which is like £50 ish. The problem is it WONT last very long, you buy cheap you buy twice so they say. The valeo will be spot on. Best bet for GSF mate is just give them a bell and check what make it is. IIRC you also get extra discount at GSF for being a saxp member ;) so if it is valeo your onto a winner, tbh I think it will be a valeo, GSF usually do use valeo products :y:

Thanks for your help dude :y:

[SAM-S44MDS-]

No worries fella :y:
If your struggling to get 1 PM me and ill see if I can find you 1 somewhere :y:

[saxokid100]

Ive just bought one from citreon,got it for £120 cash..........

[AndySAXO]

Hmm what colour plug coilpack is it? I have a black plug 16v coilpack it in fully working order pm me if you want it can post today

[sexy_gt]

i also have one for sale if andys isnt the right one :)

[JRC1]

Only just seen these replies :n:

Managed to buy a brand new Valeo one from GSF car parts but i've just looked and it's got the black type plug on the end. I have a 3 plug ECU (later engine)

Does that mean this one won't fit?!?!?! I never even knew there were two types and nobody said that to me when I bought it, I stated that the engine was from a 2002 VTS as well!

Fuck sake!

[AndySAXO]

Yer there are two types, mk2/3 plug ecu are normal White plug ones what one is your old one?

[JRC1]

Yer there are two types, mk2/3 plug ecu are normal White plug ones what one is your old one?

Haven't taken the old one out yet so I haven't looked but i'm guessing it will be a White plug as it's a 2002 3 plug engine? Does that mean this one won't work at all, like I can't switch the plugs over or anything?

[moxy89]

mate dont let them fuck you about they done the same to me and said that electircal items cant be replaced.. i got it changed and just a head ups.. i doubt it will fix the lumpiness of the car mine is running the same and i changed plugs and coilpack and did nothing

[JRC1]

mate dont let them fuck you about they done the same to me and said that electircal items cant be replaced.. i got it changed and just a head ups.. i doubt it will fix the lumpiness of the car mine is running the same and i changed plugs and coilpack and did nothing

I know, rang them and they said that the black plug one fits all saxo's up to 2004. Clearly not. Just looked and my current one is a Grey/White type plug as people have said on here. Absolute twats have wasted my time now and means I have to order elsewhere. It better sort it out because it's not just lumpy, cuts out and fails to start and that :homme:

[moxy89]

mate mine is the same, under hard braking it doesnt catch the idle and cuts out, randomly it just cuts out. The car is a nightmare mate..

[vtr_chris90]

the later grey/white plug are actually just as cheap from the dealer tbh, euro are far over priced

its only 140 on citroens site inc vat ive just checked on citroen, and if your nice you may be able to sway for trade discount lol ;)

gsf are a waste of time tbh, pain in the arse with returns too as are euro
i work for andrew page and just hear nothing but bad comments from garages about gsf and euro you haveto be careful what you buy and double check stuff yourself before buyng it too

you need valeo number 245096 thats the grey plug
early model is 245086 which im guesing is what they supplied you?

[JRC1]

the later grey/white plug are actually just as cheap from the dealer tbh, euro are far over priced

its only 140 on citroens site inc vat ive just checked on citroen, and if your nice you may be able to sway for trade discount lol ;)

gsf are a waste of time tbh, pain in the arse with returns too as are euro
i work for andrew page and just hear nothing but bad comments from garages about gsf and euro you haveto be careful what you buy and double check stuff yourself before buyng it too

you need valeo number 245096 thats the grey plug
early model is 245086 which im guesing is what they supplied you?

Cheers for the info mate. Already ordered it though. I made 10000000x sure it was the right one. Citroen wanted £218 plus VAT!!! Euro wanted around £120 so went for them, as it's only £20 more than I paid from GSF and I know it's the right one, gave them the engine code etc and they've said it's the grey plug one! Time to get a refund from GSF!

[vtr_chris90]

man thats alot, hmm citroen are strange for prices, they always vary tbh even from one depot to another lol

im lucky cause i work for andrew page and we stock a massive o/e range, and we dont o white box shit like euro do, you pay good prices for very good quality parts from us, i mean we even buy in o/e parts i bought some gear linkages through work they still come in the citroen/peugeot bags lol we stock the rear bias valves which are alwaysseized on these cars we also stock the little black fuel relay box under the ecu cause ive just bought one lol its the o/e one aswell

just one thing though make sure it is valeo from euro, they have a tendancy to say its one thing but its actully not
example pagid brakes are shitethey say they are o/e qautlity butthey are the same quality as a very budget range of brakes lol and thats their premium brand too

pagid brake padsaftermarket standard replacement ones anyway perfermance pagid brands are good, but the standard replacement only meet the ecr90 grade which is a 6hour test for brake judder and squell then compare them to say bosch and delphi which have to be tested for 6 months and have to pass about 10 different tests other wise they cant be boxed or sold on so just shows the difference in quality from places

im not tryna say dont buy from certain places as people have different opinions their own free will but its hard to find quality products these days tbh

[JRC1]

man thats alot, hmm citroen are strange for prices, they always vary tbh even from one depot to another lol

im lucky cause i work for andrew page and we stock a massive o/e range, and we dont o white box shit like euro do, you pay good prices for very good quality parts from us, i mean we even buy in o/e parts i bought some gear linkages through work they still come in the citroen/peugeot bags lol we stock the rear bias valves which are alwaysseized on these cars we also stock the little black fuel relay box under the ecu cause ive just bought one lol its the o/e one aswell

just one thing though make sure it is valeo from euro, they have a tendancy to say its one thing but its actully not
example pagid brakes are shitethey say they are o/e qautlity butthey are the same quality as a very budget range of brakes lol and thats their premium brand too

pagid brake padsaftermarket standard replacement ones anyway perfermance pagid brands are good, but the standard replacement only meet the ecr90 grade which is a 6hour test for brake judder and squell then compare them to say bosch and delphi which have to be tested for 6 months and have to pass about 10 different tests other wise they cant be boxed or sold on so just shows the difference in quality from places

im not tryna say dont buy from certain places as people have different opinions their own free will but its hard to find quality products these days tbh


Yeah I know what you're saying mate. I stressed that it had to be a Valeo one and they said it was so i'll double check when I collect it tomorrow :y:

[JRC1]

So it's not the coil pack. Fitted a brand new Valeo one and problem remains. Seems to stutter at low revs and hold back, like it's misfiring. Also on idle if I just hold the revs just above 1k it seems to stutter as well and just sound rough. Other than Idle Control Valve and Map Sensor, is there anything else worth checking? Mechanic friend coming to look tomorrow so thought i'd ask in advance.

Thankyou :y:

[vtr_chris90]

lambda sensor mate
theres another option

erm also the engine temp sensor
id say get him to whip the diagnostics on the car and find out all the readings and see whats going on, if there are any odd temps and make sure the graph for the lambda is consistant

its a shame your so far away id be more than happy to put diagnostics on for you as i know garages charge insane prices for it to be looked at, i know around the warwick area they charge roughly 20 quid and upwards just to turn light off after service lol if they even did it. and on average around 45-50quid an hour for it

but sometimes like in this case sppending that money will still make a saving over spending changing sensor after sensor which can cost more like in this case unfortunatly

i cant see it being idle control valve though mate cause as soon as the throttle opens the icv becomes in-active

but could be map sensor or one of the above sensors i mentioned (lambda, engine temp)

[AndySAXO]

Yer could be lambda can't you plug the engine to get a fault code, I had a lamdbs fault code and my eml never cane on.

[KieranYeh]

Mines running a bit lumpy..
Its not so much the idol, its like moxy, when i dip the clutch the car idol drops down and it sometimes stalls, easy to revive by just lifting it back up so the engine kickstarts again, but a pain in the arse sometimes.
The only problem i can pin that on is my lambda reading, i have a 4-1 branch and its obviously reading a million grams
have you got a branch mani? could be the lambda sensor..
Good luck today anywho!

[JRC1]

Mines running a bit lumpy..
Its not so much the idol, its like moxy, when i dip the clutch the car idol drops down and it sometimes stalls, easy to revive by just lifting it back up so the engine kickstarts again, but a pain in the arse sometimes.
The only problem i can pin that on is my lambda reading, i have a 4-1 branch and its obviously reading a million grams
have you got a branch mani? could be the lambda sensor..
Good luck today anywho!

Cheers mate. I think it could be Lambda tbh, but I don't see why it would have suddenly gone, i've had a Supersprint 4-2-1 on for nearly 2 years now!

Hopefully i'll know in a few hours time! :y:

[djx11b]

be good to see if it is the lambda as having same problems with mine and also changed my temp sensor, coilpack and icv already so thinking it might be the lambda

keep us updated

[JRC1]

Had the diagnostic test done. Came back with no faults at all other than the obvious running rich type one but this is only because of the de-cat. So fuck knows tbh! Have been told to change the fuel filter so gunna do that, if that's not it then :fcuk: All sensors are fine apparently, as they would have shown up. Lambda one is fine as well.

What do you guys reckon? Worth changing the fuel filter? I've been told that if it is clogged up it could cause all the symptoms that i'm getting...

[wolf_gsxr]

egr valve? if it has 1

[Liam_]

egr valve? if it has 1

It's a fresh air pump. It doesn't effect how the car runs.

Try giving the MAP sensor a clean - it's on the left hand side of the inlet manifold. Remove the bolt, pull it out and spray it with carb cleaner.

Does the car run any different if you unplug the pre-CAT (first) lambda sensor?

[bengtt5]

had a similiar prob on my old vts that had no fault codes come up but i pulled out the lambda by chance and the outer shell of the probe was gone and the probe itself was melted

[JRC1]

It's a fresh air pump. It doesn't effect how the car runs.

Try giving the MAP sensor a clean - it's on the left hand side of the inlet manifold. Remove the bolt, pull it out and spray it with carb cleaner.

Does the car run any different if you unplug the pre-CAT (first) lambda sensor?

I don't think I even have the first Lambda sensor? Pretty sure it just has the one on the manifold as I just have a straight through pipe after that. Have had this for 2 years though without any issues. Surely if any sensors were gone or causing problems they would have shown up on the Diagnostics?

Do you have a close up pic of the map sensor? I couldn't find it when I was looking :homme:

Do you also think it's worth changing the fuel filter seeing as it could be the problem and it is only around 8 quid..?

Thanks dude

[Liam_]

Sounds like you have the pre-CAT sensor already - if you run a decat, it should be the only sensor in the exhaust. For something to try, you could unplug it (plug is probably lying on top of the gearbox) and see if the car runs any better. If so, the sensor could be at fault.

As for the MAP sensor - see here (http://file052b.bebo.com/1/original/2010/02/10/22/203238276a12196333055o.jpg). Remove the bolt and pull it out of the inlet manifold. Give it a good spray with carb cleaner to get the oil off it.

Won't do any harm to do the fuel filter. :y:

[AndySAXO]

Still check the lamdba, should be overly rich with out a cat.

[JRC1]

Update 19/11

So today we first of all cleaned the map sensor with carb cleaner. Was a bit of dirt/oil in there so gave it a good clean and put it back on.

Then replaced the fuel filter with a brand new Bosch one.

Took the car for about a 10 mile drive. It still doesn't seem to be running right :n: It seems to bog down at lowish revs and just stutters a lot if I put my foot on the throttle and hover it at around 1k revs. Also, you get to know the note of your exhaust and it doesn't sound the same. Without fail, before the problem started everytime I let off the gas the exhaust would always pop and bang at 2k revs and letting off after a gearchange. It doesn't seem to do this anymore and just pops on the odd occasion, it also sounds quite droany (sp) and rough when I let off.

I've pretty much done everything now apart from the Lambda sensor which i'll try and clean/remove later on today. Certain that I only have one lambda sensor on mine, does anyone have a pic of where it is as i'm not entirely sure. I'm sure the sensor is on the manifold but is there a plug on top of the gearbox as said above? If anyone has a pic that would be great.

Kind of pulling my hair out now, the car does seem to be running fine when I give it some - (I suppose it has really had a mini service what with new plugs, coilpack and fuel filter). But I can tell that something is still not right and it's not running the same.

Sorry for the essay but any help is appreciated :y:

[sexy_gt]

have you considered it may be a gummed up injector?

[JRC1]

have you considered it may be a gummed up injector?

No? I'm only going on what people have suggested on here, i'm not very mechanically minded lol :)

It's had a Diagnostic test and like i've said above, came back with no faults other than running rich, but I was told this was due to the de-cat...

[vtr_chris90]

What diagnostics did he use? Cause some are only basic and will just tell you if there are any faults.
If they were decent diagnostics it will tell you every detail, like what the injectors are firing at, a graph showing you how the lambda is performing, also the map sensor everything. It literally tells you everything
when my lambda went the other week it didn't come up as a fault on the diagnostics, I only spotted it myself when I watche the graph and spotted it wasn't right, then changed the lambda and my probs went

So if somethings gone it doesn't always bring up fault codes, I don't know why lol
But lie mentioned above it could be injectors

What diagnostics did the guy use on your car?

[JRC1]

What diagnostics did he use? Cause some are only basic and will just tell you if there are any faults.
If they were decent diagnostics it will tell you every detail, like what the injectors are firing at, a graph showing you how the lambda is performing, also the map sensor everything. It literally tells you everything
when my lambda went the other week it didn't come up as a fault on the diagnostics, I only spotted it myself when I watche the graph and spotted it wasn't right, then changed the lambda and my probs went

So if somethings gone it doesn't always bring up fault codes, I don't know why lol
But lie mentioned above it could be injectors

What diagnostics did the guy use on your car?

Everywhere was booked up due to the time of year near me so had no choice but to take it to Citroen. They charged £45 for the Diagnostics which I thought wasn't too bad. Haven't a clue how in depth the Diagnostic test was. He just showed us the sheet which had one fault (running rich or something similar) but he said that's probably because of the de-cat. He said all the levels seem fine etc..

It's booked in to a more specialist place this Thursday so if it does turn out to be injectors or something like that i'll have to let them deal with it as that is over my head tbh...

I suppose it is worth cleaning/un-plugging the lambda sensor though as at least that can be another thing ticked off the list! Do you know where it is/how to go about cleaning it?

Cheers for your help mate :y:

[vtr_chris90]

Ahhh yer I see, it is a pain sometimes with diagnostics, it's kind of easy money tbh and some places don't always check fully just say they hve and do the basic to see if there's any faults and print it off and say there u go, if you get me

As for lambda, cleaning it isn't something that will fix it tbh, it's my like the other sensors like map and icv etc where you can give them a quick clean. If the lambdas gone it's gone, and it will need replacing ideally. I mean your problem does sound like what I had a while back and it was lambda, but there are alot of other sensors that cause the same symptoms.......the engine temp sensor, air temp sensor, lambda, map, injectors all can have similar symptoms, or it could be headgasket on it's way out maybe, could get a compression test done that's an easy job takes about 15mins a garage should only charge 10-20quid tops, but then that's another thing eliminated isn't it.

It's hard to diagnose over the Internet tbh, it's something that needs to be looked at as it really could be anything

I mean I had a mojor problem 3weeks ago, the car was running so lean that the mani was glowing bright red after 2mins of running, it would idle at like 1500-2k, it ran shit held the revs through the range when it revved that was, also I had no rev counter
Now I was told it could be crank sensor, ecu, lambda, all sorts
In the end it turned out to be the black relay under the ecu, it took me 2
Weeks of diagnostics and checking of sensors to sus that out, and even then it was a random gues/change cause I had a spare lol

[JRC1]

Ahhh yer I see, it is a pain sometimes with diagnostics, it's kind of easy money tbh and some places don't always check fully just say they hve and do the basic to see if there's any faults and print it off and say there u go, if you get me

As for lambda, cleaning it isn't something that will fix it tbh, it's my like the other sensors like map and icv etc where you can give them a quick clean. If the lambdas gone it's gone, and it will need replacing ideally. I mean your problem does sound like what I had a while back and it was lambda, but there are alot of other sensors that cause the same symptoms.......the engine temp sensor, air temp sensor, lambda, map, injectors all can have similar symptoms, or it could be headgasket on it's way out maybe, could get a compression test done that's an easy job takes about 15mins a garage should only charge 10-20quid tops, but then that's another thing eliminated isn't it.

It's hard to diagnose over the Internet tbh, it's something that needs to be looked at as it really could be anything

I mean I had a mojor problem 3weeks ago, the car was running so lean that the mani was glowing bright red after 2mins of running, it would idle at like 1500-2k, it ran shit held the revs through the range when it revved that was, also I had no rev counter
Now I was told it could be crank sensor, ecu, lambda, all sorts
In the end it turned out to be the black relay under the ecu, it took me 2
Weeks of diagnostics and checking of sensors to sus that out, and even then it was a random gues/change cause I had a spare lol

I know what you mean mate. It's a fucking pain in the arse tbh. That's what people were saying to me - there's not point replacing sensor after sensor as there are so many you could end up replacing 5 sensors and still have the problem. I was hoping that the diagnostics would bring up the problem tbh but evidently not! Kind of at a loose end now really. Like I say its booked in with a specialist place who have been recommended to me and do seem to really know their stuff so hopefully they will end up finding whats wrong without me being too much out of pocket!

How can I find out if it is the Lambda in the meantime then? Can I unplug it and drive the car without it and if it drives fine I know I need a new sensor?

Thanks again :y:

[Liam_]

The lambda you want to unplug is likely to be screwed into the manifold somewhere. Find the sensor, then follow the wire back up to the loom plug (probably on top of the gearbox).

Unplug it and see if it runs any better - it will be chucking in more fuel than normal, but should drive smooth IIRC.

[bengtt5]

Also my mate vts was running rough and kept cutting out it was solved by putting a can of bg44k it the tank
Basically decent fuel cleaner not the piss halfords sell