Throttle bodies

[Jase125]

Hi guys, looking in to putting throttle bodies only vtr, would it be safe to run them with a Newman ph3 cam on standard bottom end?! Cheers

[SaxoMuffin]

Yeah should be fine...Won't see huge gains unless you do fiddle more but that would be fine..

[Jase125]

Why wont I see big gains?

[adamskiTNR]

You will see very noticeable gains. Not hugely in the max hp figure that people will rave about, but mid range torque and power will make a huge difference to how the car feels. Port work will also be more beneficial on the 8v heads compared to the 16v heads in conjunction with itb's

[-shuggles-]

+1 don't get cought up in the quest for peak power... mid range and low end power is where the fun is at:y:

[SaxoMuffin]

You will see very noticeable gains. Not hugely in the max hp figure that people will rave about, but mid range torque and power will make a huge difference to how the car feels. Port work will also be more beneficial on the 8v heads compared to the 16v heads in conjunction with itb's

Sorry yeah this is what i meant you would see gains but for max gains then you'll want the headwork etc..

[Jase125]

I've got headwork done already guys, ph3 cam, ported and polished, bigger springs and valves!

I have manifold exhaust etc aswell so should be pretty good bhp I would of thought?

Just need to find a inlet mani and bodies for the 8v now lol. Cheers guys

[adamskiTNR]

unlucky mate. just sold a set of 8v jenvey's with inlet manifold for my boss.

[Jase125]

Oh dam what mani and body's were they mate? Where can I get it all from?

[RustySkull]

unlucky mate. just sold a set of 8v jenvey's with inlet manifold for my boss.

I'd have had them also lol.

Can't find an 8V set anywhere!

[adamskiTNR]

Not sure really. the jenvey's were doubles. and i'm not sure who made the manifold

[-shuggles-]

Oh dam what mani and body's were they mate? Where can I get it all from?

why not get bike bodies and get onto the phone to bogg brothers to get the inlet made up?

[SaxoMuffin]

Speak to Sandy/Colin they make up the GSXR kit if you click on my sig and look in my progress thread you can see some pics awesome bit of kit...

[Jase125]

Ive got in contact with collin, hes gave me a price on a set of boddies with inlet mani and few other things.... save up for more pennys then i think ill buy some..... anyone know how all the fueling works? & air filter etc?? thats the only thing im stuck on..

[axsaxoman]

If its ablack top head --i can supply a manifold
flanges are such that virtually any typr of t/body can be fitted to it .
it is a downdraft manifold to enable you to get better overall lrngth on the inlet --you could also fit idf or ida type carbs to this manifold as well

£150+vat --

[Jase125]

Its silver top mate...

[Jay_]

i would also love to know where to get ITBs for 1998 VTR from!!! its silver top!

[Sophia_Bush]

anyone after bodies for early port spacing let me know as I know a guy selling a complete setup, basically bogg brother inlet, gsxr 38mm bodies all you need to do is bolt it on sort tps wiring and get it mapped up

[sexy_gt]

increase in mid range my arse. my car feels no better

[Jase125]

What? What do you mean no mid range power on bodies?

[AdamH]

increase in mid range my arse. my car feels no better

If i recall...

Long Trumpets = Midrange Torque
Short Trumpets = Top End Torque

what size trumpets are you running?

[sexy_gt]

short (standard length) ones on at power.

when i bought my 708 cams i asked on here about is it worth getting bodies to go with. i had loads of people saying you wont get much more power but you will get much more midrange torque...

[AndySAXO]

mate, my mid range wasnt great, but a session on a dyno mapping will benifit alot IMO, as you can fine tweek and see the plots to see what working and what not, also the cam timing will change it too.

[AndySAXO]

sexy_gt

see this link click look down the page to the dyno graph. (http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151898&page=35)

the three different lines show the increases they got with the dyno and mapping session, see the mid range torque and power is the biggest increases.

but road mapping ok, but will not get the best out of it, also see in my thread the comment from sandy brown about the lenght of the bodies.

[adamskiTNR]

Remember we are talking about a vtr engine not a vts engine. whole different kettle of fish. From the 8v engines i've seen running itb's the increases have been very significant i terms of torque throughout the range. and inlets are a black art. some things will work well without any rational explanation, others wont when others say they do, etc etc. what it needs is a good range of inlet tracts and a session on a dyno to really find the sweet spot

[AndySAXO]

i know, i am talking to sexy_gt at this point,

but that why i also told him to see what sandy brown had to say about the inlet lenghts.

[Duddy]

can anybody tell me what a 1.4 throttle body nd inlet would do to my 1.1?

[sexy_gt]

i know, i am talking to sexy_gt at this point,

but that why i also told him to see what sandy brown had to say about the inlet lenghts.

Cheers lads yes i have read sandys comments.

At time of purchase i did ask about trumpet lenght bu as i dont want to chop bodywork and wish to run a filter the standard ones was best choice for me.

Yes my car was road mapped yes id like to get it rr mapped out of interest too.

Cheers for comments but let this lad have his thread back please lol.

For what its worth bodies.on any car i think are ace if for the sound only :)

[AndySAXO]

Yer the at power are not design well IMO they need to be angle up abit more so we can run longer lengths and still a filter.

But just wanted to show you that.

[axsaxoman]

Yer the at power are not design well IMO they need to be angle up abit more so we can run longer lengths and still a filter.

But just wanted to show you that. I<
sorry you are wrong --no nicer way of putting it .
if you lok at the std manifold on either the vtr or vts ,or any other std car and straighten out the induction tract you will find that it is impoossible to get t/bodies n the bay with same length as std ,never mind fitting a filter assembly -,so if fitting t/bodies to a STANDARD specengine there is no way you will increase the torque by any measurable amount over the std set-up --yes it may rise as a result of an overall lift in bhp ,but in comparison to total power it will not increase by a significant amount .
you may not be \aware but i made a jenvey system with 180 degree trumpets which made the inlet lwength so long that if you straightened the trumpets out they would be near hitting the wiper motor --they worked fine , gave very good light throttle response and economy --but of course were slagged by forum "guru,s " as restricting top end power --which was not particularly true anyway --.

you can understand why when i see posts such as this i get annoyed
you glibly talk about "black art " .
you can only make the pefect set-up if you design to suit a particular camashaft profile ,ex manifold type + primary length + dia and valve size ,etc ,etc ,



so how is it possible to make a perfect system to suit every combination of tuning different people wil do --and of course they will not match all components ayway --just go for the cheapest patrs alot of the time ,fit cams with no new hydraulic lifters ,etc ,etc ..

the bottom line is there will always be compromises

[Duddy]

wow you know your shit lol, :D good stuff, really enjoyed reading that

[sje00]

Sandy's GSXR bodies set up is incredibly good. its been seen that an xsi made 132bhp with 4-2-1 and exhaust plus Sandy's bodies and mapping on DTA. The xsi is 100bhp iirc. so that is a bloody good game.

I have basically the same set up but with Omex, QEP head and Cat Cam 645 on my S2 Rallye and i'm making 156bhp.

[Igorbio]

I<
sorry you are wrong --no nicer way of putting it .
if you lok at the std manifold on either the vtr or vts ,or any other std car and straighten out the induction tract you will find that it is impoossible to get t/bodies n the bay with same length as std ,never mind fitting a filter assembly -,so if fitting t/bodies to a STANDARD specengine there is no way you will increase the torque by any measurable amount over the std set-up --yes it may rise as a result of an overall lift in bhp ,but in comparison to total power it will not increase by a significant amount .
you may not be \aware but i made a jenvey system with 180 degree trumpets which made the inlet lwength so long that if you straightened the trumpets out they would be near hitting the wiper motor --they worked fine , gave very good light throttle response and economy --but of course were slagged by forum "guru,s " as restricting top end power --which was not particularly true anyway --.

you can understand why when i see posts such as this i get annoyed
you glibly talk about "black art " .
you can only make the pefect set-up if you design to suit a particular camashaft profile ,ex manifold type + primary length + dia and valve size ,etc ,etc ,



so how is it possible to make a perfect system to suit every combination of tuning different people wil do --and of course they will not match all components ayway --just go for the cheapest patrs alot of the time ,fit cams with no new hydraulic lifters ,etc ,etc ..

the bottom line is there will always be compromises

Sorry to bump an old thread but it seems to be quite useful!
axsaxoman, could you please clear it a little bit. You say there will not be noticeable torque gains besides overall bhp rise - it is also from ITBs? You mean there will be gains but the character on the engine and its power/torque ratio will not change much or that there will not be gains at all on mild cams?

Curved trumpets seem like a smart idea though!

[axsaxoman]

Sorry to bump an old thread but it seems to be quite useful!
axsaxoman, could you please clear it a little bit. You say there will not be noticeable torque gains besides overall bhp rise - it is also from ITBs? You mean there will be gains but the character on the engine and its power/torque ratio will not change much or that there will not be gains at all on mild cams?

Curved trumpets seem like a smart idea though!


please qualify exactly what you are asking as i cannot understand what part of my post you are referring to .
pose an exact question please ,and specify what you consider to be mild cams

[axsaxoman]

just an update to sexy-gt+his engine when it was fitted with t/bodies
I had his car a short time ago to fit a s/c kit and first thing i did was dyno it
yes it was down on power and max power did not happen where it should have ,but that was nothing to do with the t/bodies it was a problem inside the engine somewhere --I did not look for it as it was being stripped for a respec to s/c --but yes it was down on ulitmate power -but it did pull very sweet through out the range --my guess would be the cam timing was very retarded which madeit idle sweeter than a std car and would account for the max opower occurring at such low rpm --but as a road car for every day use it drove very well
it would ilde at 600rpm no problem all day long + started from cold on the key --no throttle needed--so thats points to mechanical spec/set-up and nothing to do with type of t/bodies or length of trumpets or indeed mapping of the predator ecu

[nickhead]

I've got some 180degree trumpets and enclosure for sale.

One of your setups John, good for track as the noise is kept hush hush

[Igorbio]

I<
if you lok at the std manifold on either the vtr or vts ,or any other std car and straighten out the induction tract you will find that it is impoossible to get t/bodies n the bay with same length as std ,never mind fitting a filter assembly -,so if fitting t/bodies to a STANDARD specengine there is no way you will increase the torque by any measurable amount over the std set-up --yes it may rise as a result of an overall lift in bhp ,but in comparison to total power it will not increase by a significant amount .
you may not be \aware but i made a jenvey system with 180 degree trumpets which made the inlet lwength so long that if you straightened the trumpets out they would be near hitting the wiper motor --they worked fine , gave very good light throttle response and economy --but of course were slagged by forum "guru,s " as restricting top end power --which was not particularly true anyway

I'll try to make it clearer...
The statement in bold.

My next season setup is the following (pretty much standard over here): 743 cams, predator, 4-2-1 and panel filter - will ITBs setup make any noticeable benefits besides the sound:homme:?

[luthor1]

Not speaking for John, but just my own views, John said "...STANDARD spec engine".

If you've got cams in, you've not got a standard spec engine so it will make a difference.

"Noticeable" is a subjective word, sensitive drivers may notice the changes, others may not. All drivers should notice the noise! :)

[Igorbio]

Not speaking for John, but just my own views, John said "...STANDARD spec engine".

If you've got cams in, you've not got a standard spec engine so it will make a difference.

"Noticeable" is a subjective word, sensitive drivers may notice the changes, others may not. All drivers should notice the noise! :)

That phrase made me doubt: "yes it may rise as a result of an overall lift in bhp ,but in comparison to total power it will not increase by a significant amount"

I am quite sensitive, even notice the difference after making silicone cold-air feed to STD air box and of course how it pulls in different weather.

[luthor1]

I had a customer who fitted BMW bike bodies to his Saxo VTS, standard cams, really nice manifold and exhaust.

Now, it didn't go "really fast" but once we'd mapped it, it was such a lovely driveable engine all over the rev range, all over the throttle position, very very nice drive, but as I say, probably only 140bhp top whack, but it went from no revs really hard and clean

[nazmitocak]

For a all motor saxo vts like,
12.2 cr. piston
ph5 cammed
ecu (omex 600).
are the dimensions of at power itb enough ?

[axsaxoman]

For a all motor saxo vts like,
12.2 cr. piston
ph5 cammed
ecu (omex 600).
are the dimensions of at power itb enough ?
simple answer is yes they are large enough we have had 210bhp with a good spread of torque using these bodies with suitable engine spec .

[Ross]

it would ilde at 600rpm no problem all day long + started from cold on the key --no throttle needed

How EVERY mapped car should be John! :) Never seen anything bad come out of your neck of the woods, but down south there's some fucking jokers that cant manage this simple task.

[axsaxoman]

to give some befefit of doubt to some people .you only get a good result if you match all the components and i would say that 40% of the cars presetned to me get turned away until remedial work is done
like the lous eleise that had a k series fitted with t/bodies 50mm --told him before i started --but he insited on us mapping it -- he seemed happy and just to prove the point i rammed 40mm webber carbs trumpets insidee the 50mm ones he had and it made another 20bhp + alot more torque over a wider range ,even without altering any mapping --
did he listen or even believe the proof he witnessed --no --
"its fine as it is " were his words --not buying smaller t/bodies ,
but if he had asked before purchasing them --then it would have been right
my question to him ?why did you buiy these
his answer --they were cheap,
thats not idea of cheap