Bigger TB / TBs / receiver on a VTS

[Igorbio]

planning "to do list" for my engine...

right now I have a stock engine, supersprint backbox, decat and a chip, OEM manifold (cheap 4-2-1 burned out completelly, had to remove it)

so I am planning a new 4-2-1 manifold, mild cams (ph3 or similar), and program it after intake install

what would be an overall better breathing mod for a VTS:
1. just a bigger single throttle body - i've read saab 900 will fit? any other? s1600 - too expensive? any other options to look for?
2. same with a receiver?
2. classic throttle bodies - how do you guys fit'em in a VTS? there's absolutely no room, how to fit filters? how to fit cold air intake?
I've read in FAQ that TBs have sense if you make the trumpets at least 15" long (this would never fit a VTS!!!) and organize good cold air feed - a receiver might be a good idea?

PS tried to search but didn't find a single answer...

[xsi16v]

what do you mean by "receiver"?

[Igorbio]

I don't know how it's called correctly
http://images.yandex.ru/yandsearch?ed=1&text=%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%20 %D1%82%D1%8E%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3&img_url=www.tuningdesign.ru%2Fpublished%2Fpublicda ta%2FC2572SHOP%2Fattachments%2FSC%2Fproducts_pictu res%2Fsportivnyj_resiver_stinger_16v_2_enl.jpg&rpt=simage&p=17
intake resonator?

[Mini-valver]

He means an air box. You can use short trumpets but it'll kill the torque. Jenvey used to do a 180 degree trumpet so you could have a good runner length without having to cut the bulkhead. If t was my car, LHD wiper and cut the bulkhead away and fab up a nice brace so you keep some of the strength.

[axsaxoman]

He means an air box. You can use short trumpets but it'll kill the torque. Jenvey used to do a 180 degree trumpet so you could have a good runner length without having to cut the bulkhead. If t was my car, LHD wiper and cut the bulkhead away and fab up a nice brace so you keep some of the strength.

no jenvey didi not make 180degree trumpets --that was my t/b kit using jenvey tbodies ,but things have moved on in the last ten years
our lateset kit is much easier to fit ,has no clearance problems and is best value for money any where .
to run t/bodies correctly you need either a stand alone ecu or get your own one remapped to suit
here is a picture of our t/body kit

http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/engine/throttle-bodys-and-parts/saxo-106-c2-gmc/atp-throttle-bodies/prod_573.html
we can also supply a filter assembly which fits with no mods £140+vat

[axsaxoman]

to answer your first question --fiting larger single body will no noticable difference to performance --
far better to fit cams ,even on single body you will get a 20bhp increase

http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/engine/cam-valve-train/gmc-ultimate-road-cams/prod_614.html.
we have specialsied in 8+16 TU engines for last 20 years ,

[Igorbio]

our lateset kit is much easier to fit ,has no clearance problems and is best value for money any where .
to run t/bodies correctly you need either a stand alone ecu or get your own one remapped to suit
here is a picture of our t/body kit

http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/engine/throttle-bodys-and-parts/saxo-106-c2-gmc/atp-throttle-bodies/prod_573.html
we can also supply a filter assembly which fits with no mods £140+vat

sure I am going to install new ecu and remap it

and there i still question of cold air intake with TBs...

concerning bigger single body - I did not consider fitting it alone - only with cams, will this have any sense or OEM will work just fine?

This is a road/track car and I often race on slow tracks, so mid range performance is very important! still TBs - best option?

[Mini-valver]

no jenvey didi not make 180degree trumpets --that was my t/b kit using jenvey tbodies ,but things have moved on in the last ten years
our lateset kit is much easier to fit ,has no clearance problems and is best value for money any where .
to run t/bodies correctly you need either a stand alone ecu or get your own one remapped to suit
here is a picture of our t/body kit

http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/engine/throttle-bodys-and-parts/saxo-106-c2-gmc/atp-throttle-bodies/prod_573.html
we can also supply a filter assembly which fits with no mods £140+vat


Do the DTH AT make any less torque than a Jenvey kit? Pretty sure Jenvey made trumpets like that, not Saxo specific kits. May be wrong though!

[axsaxoman]

sure I am going to install new ecu and remap it

and there i still question of cold air intake with TBs...

concerning bigger single body - I did not consider fitting it alone - only with cams, will this have any sense or OEM will work just fine?

This is a road/track car and I often race on slow tracks, so mid range performance is very important! still TBs - best option?
you would be able to fit a plenim chamber ,a box around the trumpets , if you wished with our kit ,then 60mm pipe to front panel ,but if race car you could make a 3 sided box ,fit with old door seal to match scuttle panel shape and then fit scoop to bonnet so air can only enter from the scoop .
the difference you will get with cold air is aprox 3-6% per 10 degrees rise in inlet temp over ambient temp ,presuming you have an inlet air temp sensor in correct postion and the have air temp correction + baro metric correction in your map -,but yes a totally sealed system on correct size will give you best you can get ,not easy with some t/body kits as the trumpets are too close to scuttle to start with .
In an ideal world the trumpet ends should be no closer than the dia of the trumpet to any hard surface ,as you can get pulse interference with air flow,minimum should be 30mm for normal usage ,this is why our filter is an ITG foam type ,the back plate is the place to mount your air temp sensor.
If allowed in your racing a small additon of water vapour to inlet pipe on a plenim system will drop the inlet temps very effectivly ,but if your air temps are not in the 40,sc ,then not worth the bother--but you are now getting very complicated on the mapping,as its another parameter to monitor and water injection system is not cheap
fit cams = t/bodies +ex system and you will get 170bhp from std engine ,and it will run like a road car if mapped correctly

[Igorbio]

you would be able to fit a plenim chamber ,a box around the trumpets , if you wished with our kit ,then 60mm pipe to front panel ,but if race car you could make a 3 sided box ,fit with old door seal to match scuttle panel shape and then fit scoop to bonnet so air can only enter from the scoop .
the difference you will get with cold air is aprox 3-6% per 10 degrees rise in inlet temp over ambient temp ,presuming you have an inlet air temp sensor in correct postion and the have air temp correction + baro metric correction in your map -,but yes a totally sealed system on correct size will give you best you can get ,not easy with some t/body kits as the trumpets are too close to scuttle to start with .
In an ideal world the trumpet ends should be no closer than the dia of the trumpet to any hard surface ,as you can get pulse interference with air flow,minimum should be 30mm for normal usage ,this is why our filter is an ITG foam type ,the back plate is the place to mount your air temp sensor.
If allowed in your racing a small additon of water vapour to inlet pipe on a plenim system will drop the inlet temps very effectivly ,but if your air temps are not in the 40,sc ,then not worth the bother--but you are now getting very complicated on the mapping,as its another parameter to monitor and water injection system is not cheap
fit cams = t/bodies +ex system and you will get 170bhp from std engine ,and it will run like a road car if mapped correctly

your posts are super informative - thanks!:y:
there's no mistake - cams only = 170hp? or you meant cams + TBs + ex?

So cams which will fit standard head without TBs + full exhaust + air intake (like Simota) and a filter + remapping can give me 150-170hp? That would be awesome and just the right amount of power i am looking for...

sooo much mess with TBs I am not sure i'll make up on them...

[axsaxoman]

no just cams will be around 145-150 tops ---fit new belt and ideally new lifters ,as with any new cams ,but 70% don,t bother,if not doing ecu change or mods --fit to std timing marks and if idle is lumpy --close the EX cam till it idles fine --that is assuming it idles well on std cams now
+t/bodies +ecu 170bhp.
what mess ? our kit has everything needed -no other parts required and can be fitted in 2 hours or less ,and there is nothing that sounds like t/bodies --

[axsaxoman]

"Do the DTH AT make any less torque than a Jenvey kit? Pretty sure Jenvey made trumpets like that, not Saxo specific kits. May be wrong though!"

yes they did for a short while ,about 6 years after i made the saxo specific kit , and the jenvey ones were not made from carbon and did not fit in specific plenim chamber .
as this is a saxo forum forgive me for thinking thats what we were talking about .
I only stopped making thekit as the saxo is a very price sensitive market ,and there is no way to make cheap bent carbon trumpets ,as they have to be two piece .
the other reason was the jenvey sf unit kit is a terrible thing to build and set -up ,and jenvey refused at that time to make a proper linkage to suit the saxo ,thats why i revisited the kit and sent AT a protoype mockup and cylinder head = cam box etc to make exactly what i wanted ,that is why you can only get them from me --
I did the development and so retain the rights to the saxo kit .
how many other t/bodies have oval ports and butterflies to match the ports on the head --- NONE

as for the torque produced maybe at ONE specific point In the rpm range they could ,if the rest of the engine was specced in a certain way give approx 4% more torque in a very small band of rpm ,but at full throttle no difference,but as torque is what you measure on a dyno and bhp is a calculation then having seen over 210bhp using these bodies they work very well,if there is a difference it is so small as to be insignificant .
what ours will do is run far better at low throttle openings due to the shape ,and no matter how hard you drive, most of the time you will be in a cruise /light throttle postion ,so low noise level at that point and economy on the cruise -- EG efficency was part of the goal with this set-up -dump the throttle and they will make all the noise you want ,but they don,t have to be annoying in every day driving
loud noises at low throttle opening show the air is not flowing the same direction all the time ,or it is bouncing off the bulkhead caused by reversion of air flow
they used to call it "stand Off with carbs ,where it split fuel back out of the trumpets at low throttle

[Igorbio]

no just cams will be around 145-150 tops ---fit new belt and ideally new lifters ,as with any new cams ,but 70% don,t bother,if not doing ecu change or mods --fit to std timing marks and if idle is lumpy --close the EX cam till it idles fine --that is assuming it idles well on std cams now
+t/bodies +ecu 170bhp.
what mess ? our kit has everything needed -no other parts required and can be fitted in 2 hours or less ,and there is nothing that sounds like t/bodies --

belt and lifters are a must!:A:

...does your kit include the closed box for induction? that is what I was talking about saying "mess" - making some kind of induction kit