Cammed VTS 122BHP?!?!? Power Lossssss!!! BIG UPDATE

[CitroenSport]

Ok so it was 153.2 BHP.... was put on some reliable rollers and said 122BHP.

I know its desperate for a service but could that really make the difference?

Going to check to make sure its got cams tomorrow just incase lol im 100% sure it has but just incase... also got a bill from Chipwizards for the remap and it goes to just about 8000RPM.

Can anyone tell me where i start in sorting this out?

Or what it could be?

Wierd because i pulled quite a few car lengths infront of my mates 182 clio the other night?!?!

Any help would be great cheers :y:

[Sophia_Bush]

you sure thats not a atw figure? pretty low even for a normal none cammed breathed 16v

[CitroenSport]

atf mate atw its 99.3bhp :(

[AndySAXO]

Does it still fell the same to drive? Pull the same?

And wouldn't want it revving to 8k on standard followers.

[DanielT92]

Ouch. That figure ATW is a kick in the bollocks!

[CitroenSport]

doesnt pull any different and like i say its can comfortably pull past my mates 182

[AndySAXO]

Did they Recond a ATF ratio reading during the runs?

[CitroenSport]

not sure how/where would i find that lol

[moxy89]

that a pretty pure figure my standard s with 421 manifold ran 126.6bhp on a reliable rollers, other standard S's where running 116-120.. i gave mine a massive service, even head gasket and all that was changed, mine runs spot on a pulls very hard for a breathed VTS.

[CitroenSport]

so in comparison does yours pull past clios etc?

[Rhysupply]

im sure you have seen top gear without the service it was running i thing 157 or something like that n they did a complete service and got it back upto 215bhp
:D

[CitroenSport]

what was that mate?

[JamesR]

im sure you have seen top gear without the service it was running i thing 157 or something like that n they did a complete service and got it back upto 215bhp
:D

Pretty sure they added bigger injectors, air filter modifications and inlet modifications along side the good service.

[moxy89]

smashes my friends fiesta st and doesn't get rapid by a friends vxr corsa, however next dyno i want 230plus

[blackie_2k5]

as said franky, get it serviced first, oils and filters, then we'll move form there, poor servicing really can make a massive difference

[CitroenSport]

lets hope its that then :wall: will report back tomorrow.... going on the lash now :homme:

[AndySAXO]

most companys who dyno cars, take a ATF ratio to see how it fueling.

on full throttle for you should be around the 12.5 to 13.0 mark.

this could help you find a problem, did you not say to the dyno duy that down on power? as on the dyno would of been the best place to find a problem if you have one.

as ill be surprise if it was just a serivce, it would help but i dont think it get the 150 mark, unless air filter blocked, or fuel filter also?

but like you said it still drive the same, a 122 to 150 bhp car would notice if it was different.

also where does it peak at? and got a graph to but up be nice to see it.

[AndySAXO]

looking at the graph blackie got, you do get ATF on there, so get the graph up dude :y:

see where that is make sure it fueling correctly for a start.

[blackie_2k5]

the graph wasnt too bad, fuelling wasnt the best ive seen..but there's nothing untoward about it, jamie would have also mentioned any fuelling issues to him, he always does, 2 cars had fueling iisues he picked up on today(one got the sesion stopped), noticed DET on another due to cheap fuel, and told me mine was a tiny bit rich up top (i knew it would be as ive changed induction and it was road mapped) theyre also very accurate rollers, the airfilter set up etc has been changed since it was mapped also...

get a service done then move from there, also get the covers off and make sure it is defo cammed first... as it may just be a bit under the weather and not even cammed at all

[blackie_2k5]

looking at the graph blackie got, you do get ATF on there, so get the graph up dude :y:

see where that is make sure it fueling correctly for a start.

the shootout on screen was fly figures/AFR, but he gives wheel/afr & fly/torque too... you norm get 2 graphs i got 3 today lol :y:

[AndySAXO]

yer thanks, so should know his ATF then on full throttle worth checking that now, see if that ok, then go from there.

[Mieran]

Could be a standard engine mate

I know a member on here who had their car remapped at chip wizards, when it came to selling, he took everything off (ecu, cams etc) but in the advert it said 157bhp and gave the new owner the dyno print out, I hate cocks like that

[JamesR]

Could be a standard engine mate

I know a member on here who had their car remapped at chip wizards, when it came to selling, he took everything off (ecu, cams etc) but in the advert it said 157bhp and gave the new owner the dyno print out, I hate cocks like that

That's disgusting tbh

[AndySAXO]

yer, that is...... really wrong, i would of just gone straight back!!

yer it could be, but that why i asked to see where peak power was, as cammed engine will normal peak abit higher than a standard one, if it peaking at around 6.6k then maybe it got standard cams

[blackie_2k5]

lots of ppl do it mieran, and it would explain alot, as when the old cams went back in they wouldnt be put to standard timing marks, but would have been adjusted to get the best out of the uprated cams, which would potentially reduce the power the stock cams produce#1

[blackie_2k5]

yer, that is...... really wrong, i would of just gone straight back!!

yer it could be, but that why i asked to see where peak power was, as cammed engine will normal peak abit higher than a standard one, if it peaking at around 6.6k then maybe it got standard cams

going off the graph it didnt "look" cammed from the curve, iirc its a very smooth straightish line...

[AndySAXO]

yer can be stright if the cams are set like that, it down to the timing.

where does it peak at? that could help abit more.

but really could be any thing, it will not take long to check the cams to see if they are standard.

[blackie_2k5]

ive not got the graph, he'll comment when he sees tommorow

[atspeedracing]

99... about what id see for a stock engine.

try another rolling road for second opinion?

708s on otherwise stock engine (stock intake) show 120-125@ wheels.

with throttle bodies 130ish.. most i ever saw was 140@ wheels using 708s.

- colin

[garyapt]

just done 138@wheels with ours 167@fly

gmc cams, at bodies,standalone and v power fuel

[KamRacing]

Is it faster than it was. If not then theres a problem. Rolling roads are just a tool and the operators are not always accurate or have it properly calibrated

[blackie_2k5]

Is it faster than it was. If not then theres a problem. Rolling roads are just a tool and the operators are not always accurate or have it properly calibrated

the operator knows what hes doing and theyre very accurate rollers in this instance, for example, a cammed gti was on at motorscope last week(which are known for reading a little over) it made 153bhp, today it made 148bhp, a corsa turbo was mapped and made 301bhp very recentley, today it made 297bhp iirc? all other cars made what they should have or nearabouts... mine made good figures so a good mix tbh...frankies was the only one that stood out as not right for the engine/spec

as for faster hes just bought it like that mate, coming from owning a vtr with breathing mods, that went on today aswell and made 110ish iirc? so he cant compare as he bought it how it is...

[A_Whit]

This car previously belong to my brother, all that needs to be done is for the rocker cover to be taken off and check the cams, there a box in my house with the old cams in that I can take a photo of any upload tonight. As said above the RR is just a tool, it is deffinately been cammed as would a normal sax be able to keep up with an S3?

I would give it a service franky cos on topgear they seviced a car a increase the bhp by quite a bit

[AndySAXO]

Yer that was a different car with more power out the box.

Serivce might help but will not get 30 bhp.

Unless the air filter totally block, but if that was the case the ATF would be wrong.

So what they air to fuel ratio? That will show that.

When matey get back online and so we can find out what the fuelling like then we can see if that right.

And yer just get the rockers off and check that too.

And where the peak power?

[AndySAXO]

But please don't go off top gear do as I think they did other things during 'the service'

[moxy89]

as above a service will not give a saxo a 1/4 of its power back.. Your be lucky to get 10bhp from a service, personally i think your gain 3-5bhp from a decent service.

[CitroenSport]

Seriously thanks alot for all your comments and help lads i really appriciate it as im obviously worried about this.... going to check if its cammed now... and just use some instant gasket to seal it back up? will let you know asap will be half an hour.... cheers again lads :y:

[lee_saxo]

so what's the results then :)

[AndySAXO]

What the AFR? On the graph? Get the graphs up.

[sexy_gt]

what if its had a cambelt change and cams havnt been marked at their optimum?

mine in at the tuners at the mo i have 708,at and pred ecu, my other standard (bar sportcat) vts is as fast 50-110 tested recently.

hope mines cam timing, may be lifters or valves worn...

[CitroenSport]

Ok cam says CAT on shaft and has this on the end face off the cam 321 1708 ex I think
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/thestig_album/c395e7ca.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/thestig_album/1f81d64b.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/thestig_album/86be6d4b.jpg

[Liam_]

It could be the cam belt has been changed since it was mapped and the timing is back to standard?

If you speak to williamsvts, he'll be able to check the timing for you and if need be, set it to the lift at TDC for those cams.

[CitroenSport]

The cam belt has been changed since cams/remap

[Liam_]

I'd say there's your problem - it will be back at standard timing. Williams should be able to adjust the timing to what Cat Cams recommend.

[AndySAXO]

Fueling don't look too bad, also looks like it only revving to 7250 whixh is stand on the dyno runs. :s

The cam timing will need setting correctly.

That maybe see you back around the 150 mark.

[vts-dave]

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv329/davegsi/R312XKR.jpg

There is my graph for my gti it is also running 708s you can see the rise where they kick in yours should ave this

[CitroenSport]

the old 153bhp one

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/thestig_album/fe519898.jpg

[Sophia_Bush]

defo cam timing on that can't be anything other than that

[CitroenSport]

well the lads told me the cam belt was actually changed with the cams now? :panic:

[AndySAXO]

Hmmm looking at your 122 bhp graph and chipwizard are like the same cuvres.

So nothing been changed since it was mapped?

[CitroenSport]

Apparently not mate ?!?!?

[AndySAXO]

to be fair, chipwizard give some piss poor dyno graphs!! why have the graph with bhp and mph? why not rpm?

but looking at them both they do look like the same sort of power deilvery.....

the fueling on the one from the weekend, the fueling alittle rich, but not too bad, but again looking at the two graph, even though one upside down and the other side ways, look like the same power cuvre.

[AndySAXO]

and why does it only rev to 7250? sure it should rev higher? if the chipwizard graph had rpm instead of mph would be alot easier. but they do really look the same.

maybe go some where else see what you get after the serivce then go from there.

[CitroenSport]

it revs to 8000rpm or just just under

[1989vts]

hows the progress mate?

[AndySAXO]

but looking at the dyno graph looks like it get to just over 7k before stopping.

[moxy89]

yeah it revs to 8000 on the dial ?? so do most vts's mine does and so does a friends..

[AndySAXO]

i am not trying to be funny dude, just pointing this out to you looking at the dyno graph. from the weekend, and looking at the two cuvres they look like they are followering the same cuvre.

as the fueling seem about right, abit rich really when it getting the 12's but still ok, guess it was mapping on the safe side so to speak.

[CitroenSport]

i am not trying to be funny dude, just pointing this out to you looking at the dyno graph. from the weekend, and looking at the two cuvres they look like they are followering the same cuvre.

as the fueling seem about right, abit rich really when it getting the 12's but still ok, guess it was mapping on the safe side so to speak.

so what u saying bud that thats the power off the car?

[CitroenSport]

just took cambelt cover off to take a pic to show williams and snapped it... now the engine is making a wierd knocking/squeeling noise???? fucking sik

[CitroenSport]

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/thestig_album/5113d9d9.jpg

[AndySAXO]

what that picture meant to show?

[AndySAXO]

also the noise could be the bottom bit of the cambelt cover if you didnt snap it all.

[CitroenSport]

what that picture meant to show?

timing? lol

also the noise could be the bottom bit of the cambelt cover if you didnt snap it all.

i only got the top half out i cant get the bottom half out... how would that make the noise mate?

[Liam_]

You need to turn engine over with a ratchet on the crank till you can pop a 5mm allen key into the flywheel locking hole. Then take a picture of where the cam pulleys are.

[AndySAXO]

Hmm that don't show the timing dude.

You need to get that round to the timing marks, Basiclly what matey said above.

And well could be vibrating, not sure on that noise

[CitroenSport]

You need to turn engine over with a ratchet on the crank till you can pop a 5mm allen key into the flywheel locking hole. Then take a picture of where the cam pulleys are.

can you go into more detail mate lol sorry... just where the crank is and flywheel locking hole :P

Hmm that don't show the timing dude.

You need to get that round to the timing marks, Basiclly what matey said above.

And well could be vibrating, not sure on that noise

i have tried to get a vid up on photobucket off my iphone but it wont accept vids... it sounds like a squeeling/scraping/slightly knocking aswell noise :wacko: but sounds like its coming from inside the engine to me

[CitroenSport]

Anyone else know how to show timing and I will do it now?

[AndySAXO]

Just turn the crank round til you can lock it off at the flywheel.

Then see where the cam pulleys are at.

Need to take the driver wheel off, so easier to get the crank bolt to turn the engine over.

[kyle4256]

my vts had cat cam 708's a while back and gmc motorsport mapped it, it ran 110@wheels without bein mapped then once i got it back from gmc it had 129@wheels

[CitroenSport]

Thought the fly wheel was with the clutch?

[AndySAXO]

It is, but on the of the flywheel there a silt for locking the bottom end up.

[raunchz]

Is it just me or do all the Chipwizards graphs look exactly the same regardless of the car?!

Get the timing setup by someone who knows what they're doing, give it a good service and then go back to the same dyne for a couple of runs

[blackie_2k5]

i did say it seems like the timing is out, only thing it really can be going off graphs, take it to williams for service and get hm to set your timing, theres another RR day at evotune on the 27th, get it sorted for that and youll get same rollers without having to pay £65

[CitroenSport]

Ok going to Williams next week so hopfully I will notice the difference once timed up properly?!

And is it ok to drive with out a cambelt cover for a week until he can fit it?
It was a nightmare to get off and ended up snapping the bottom bit off :p

[raunchz]

Ok going to Williams next week so hopfully I will notice the difference once timed up properly?!

And is it ok to drive with out a cambelt cover for a week until he can fit it?
It was a nightmare to get off and ended up snapping the bottom bit off :p

should be fine, just don't go practicing rally driving on gravel

[vts-dave]

to be honest i have just fitted a new engine to my gti and instead of timing up the cams i just put them in at standard timing and the only difference is that its sluggish lower down the revs, unless your timing is totaly out i cant see you gettin 30bhp from timing them up

[AndySAXO]

Yer but if you look at chipwizard graph vs the new one, the look like the same cuvre, if you take it out the different scales.

[CitroenSport]

Yer but if you look at chipwizard graph vs the new one, the look like the same cuvre, if you take it out the different scales.

so you think i will get back to 150ish?

i dont get it... what else could it be?

could it be loosing power through transmission?

[CitroenSport]

And thinking about what the other lad said if you just drop 708's in a 16v you should gain some so how havnt I with them and a remap? Even the exsaust, manifold, decat and induction should give me more than 2bhp lol

[AndySAXO]

Yer you should have more. That a given should be around the 145 150 mark about 125 to 130 at the wheels.

Something not right, need to check the timing then see if that right, then go from there.

[CitroenSport]

Ok cheers mate you have been a big help, williams will be sorting it next week so will report back then :)

[CitroenSport]

Ok went to Williams last night and car was on standard timing!!! So he changed it and I think it's quicker but I couldn't really tell... So then he got his computer and and checked why the engine management light is on.... And it came up blah blah 6060 ECU :( so could that just be because of remap? Or is it fucked ECU?

[AndySAXO]

Yer I don't know what chipwizard dose with the ecu to map them, but hear he puts them in limp mode.

And yer dont forget not always the timing set by the cat company will give max power for your engine.

But it should work better than standardtiming.

You need really to gets remap/ standalone ecu and timung done to get max bhp/ torque maybe save now for bodies? :p

[sexy_gt]

Mine is on rollers at the mo. Not complete yet but have some good gains from setting up cams properly

[CitroenSport]

Yer I don't know what chipwizard dose with the ecu to map them, but hear he puts them in limp mode.

And yer dont forget not always the timing set by the cat company will give max power for your engine.

But it should work better than standardtiming.

You need really to gets remap/ standalone ecu and timung done to get max bhp/ torque maybe save now for bodies? :p

Cheers for helping out again lads lol

So what does it mean in limp mode? When Williams took it off it then felt noticably quicker and then the next time I started it up it came back on. Would I ring Wayne? Or get different ECU?

Think timing is about sorted now and Williams has showed me how to adjust it so it's the ECU that's my problem :(

[Gareth_R]

I'd ring wayne

[AndySAXO]

Yer but not every engine the same, the timing the cam company gives a guide to go to.

But during mapping it might not be the exact same. But would be close could be the same but until it getting mapped you don't know.

Yer I hear to map the standard ecu he put them in the limp mode and maps it there.

So it could be that

I would take to the same dyno as the last one see if it different.

Then go from there, but maybe worth save for bodies standalone ecu and get it done all then?

[CitroenSport]

Yer but not every engine the same, the timing the cam company gives a guide to go to.

But during mapping it might not be the exact same. But would be close could be the same but until it getting mapped you don't know.

Yer I hear to map the standard ecu he put them in the limp mode and maps it there.

So it could be that

I would take to the same dyno as the last one see if it different.

Then go from there, but maybe worth save for bodies standalone ecu and get it done all then?


Ok will wait for rolling road and can see if I can have a few goes and will adjust it each time and see what I get... As for bodies etc don't think I can spend another penny apart from dyno on saxos at the minute! Feel like it's a never ending pit lol

so what ur saying is it should be in limp mode as he maps it from there? And I wonder how it was 153bhp when it was always standard timing?

[AndySAXO]

I don't know what chipwizard does, and to be fair not a fan on what he does with standard ecu.

Do it not be played since before the mapping your saying.

[AndySAXO]

To be fair this highlights the reason for standalone ecu atleast you know what the ecu doing.

As you can plug a laptop in a check the map on there.

[CitroenSport]

So pred ecu or just leave it basically :(

[williamsvts]

ive never seen any others in limp mode after a remap. the fault code was ' engine control module processor malfunction' p0606.

only time he puts them in limp mode is to run TB's on a standard ecu as far as i know. to be honest, i had my car mapped by him on 708s years ago and thought it was shit. drove worse, worse on fuel and could hardly tell the difference. wouldnt use him again, rather just do it myself now.

i just dont think you get the huge increase in speed from these engines people expect with cams.

a few vts's ive drove with cams some with TBs havent felt any faster.

[williamsvts]

imo, if you wana go faster, boost them or buy a faster car. your pissing your money away with cams on bodies on these.

[CitroenSport]

Been on the phone to evotune the rolling road palce and he said to take it down there and he would have a look at the remap and see if he could get it out of limp mode for good and sort it out? Think it's possible or just a waste of petrol?

[williamsvts]

how far away is it? i dont even think it will be in limp mode.

[CitroenSport]

50 mile trip so will be more than a quater tank of v power lol

so what does that code mean then? That the ECU is fucked?

[Sophia_Bush]

is this a 3 plug ecu or a single plug?

[AndySAXO]

Yer I know he did use limp mode some mapping he does like I said I don't know too much about it.

Also so a 190 bhp body car not going to be faster than a standard vts?

I understand about judt cammed cars,

But my body Saxo vs a cammed vts I pulled away easily, on the dyno his was 143 mine was 157... Sane dyno same day.

But that off topic, I was just trying to help, I know he used limp mode sometimes, must of been for the bodies map then, which IMO I would just get a standalone ecu.

Yer well glad it was nothing too bad then and now getting sorted.

Glad to have help alittle mate.

[CitroenSport]

3 plug... Think I mite just leave it... Gutted like!

Wonder if evotune could fix what ever that code is? I would pay that much to get it fixed.

Just can't find that code fault anywhere!

[CitroenSport]

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0606

someone have a look at that for me please... Think that says replace ECU

[AndySAXO]

Ring chipwizard he should know what faults are as he maps the ecu.

No harm in just a phone.

[AlexB]

Ive got q mapped 3 plug ecu i know is fine for sale atm

Off toads old engine before itbs was on my cammed converted vtr till i dropped a valve

[williamsvts]

ive never seen any other 3 plug with a permanent fault code because of mapping. worth giving wayne a call though.

[Sophia_Bush]

if its 3 plug they have been known to die in the past campdavid had problems with his. Best give wayne a buzz

[williamsvts]

that was an immobilisor fault with his.

[AndySAXO]

Well like I said I am not a fan of mapping standard ecu... Not getting into the argument, but have heard 3 plug ones have more problem after chipwizard have mapped them.

Toad had a few problems with the map, and the car driving badly.

[AlexB]

All got soted tbough andy i never had issues till i had the wrong band injectors in

[AndySAXO]

What on toad first engine on the 3 plug ecu?

He was having problem was along time ago now though.... No should listen to me on here I just talk bull shit most the time lol :)

[AlexB]

Yea andy the 3 plug off his j4 i purchased whilst his car was at pug1off getting the first motor buil i ran it on 2 cars since and simon ran it when his ecu for conversion turneed out to be locked

[AndySAXO]

O right no worries then lol my bad

[williamsvts]

mine drove shit at low revs after it was mapped aswell, was shite on fuel aswell.

[CitroenSport]

Well just been out with my mate in his 172cup and it is 100% quicker we had quite a few goes so?!?!?

[AndySAXO]

What quicker? The 172? Has it been modified? Been on a dyno?

[AndySAXO]

Also a cammed vts vs Clio will be about the sane really.

Are they stripped? Or both full interior

[CitroenSport]

Clio has lighter wheels, v power that's it.

Both full interior

mine is deffo quicker all the way to 100 ( about a car lengh from 1st/2nd gear

[AndySAXO]

That good then.

[Liam_]

I would personally just drive it as is. If the fault code isn't affecting anything, ignore it.

It's probably the ECUs way of saying "my software has been tampered with", i.e. remapped.

[CitroenSport]

Think thats what im going to do :) cheers

mite just strip it and get it raised to 40mm and leave the full car tbh

[Darkslider]

This thread is worrying me a bit, plan for my car is I want it to be quick on the road and the odd track day. I was hoping with enclosed induction, 421 mani, full magnex system and ph3 cams and a remap I'd have an easy reliable well running 150 bhp with more mid range power than I've got now. Am I dreaming on a standard ECU?

[dan_dan_the_saxo_man]

sorry if i skipped a few pages...did u re test a dyno after u found power loss?

[Barry123]

50 mile trip so will be more than a quater tank of v power lol

so what does that code mean then? That the ECU is fucked?

I've had P0606 fault code come up in the past - it's an integrity fault. Basically the ECU compares itself to a known good condition (in a nutshell, a self diagnostics), when it flags a problem it means it's either:
a) knackered
b) actually it's seeing another Citroen specific fault

On both cases mine was seeing another error but can't be directly read through an ELM327 diagnostics reader - you need a proper fault code reader (the proper ones that cost thousands which I can't remember the name of), anyway you need a trip to Citroen or a garage with one of those expensive jobbies. I kept clearing the 606 fault code with my ELM327 reader only for the damn thing to appear a few days later, so on a trip to manic motors (they had the expensive reader jobby) they pulled off the Citroen specific faults (which were lambda/decat related and it was fine since)

Next, if your engine is gobbling a quarter of a tank to 50 miles I'd be seriously %^&*ed off with your car.

Next, unless the EML light is actually flashing at you the car won't be in limp mode - so don't panic if it's just on.

Well just been out with my mate in his 172cup and it is 100% quicker we had quite a few goes so?!?!?

...so the 172 has more dire problems than your saxo??

This thread is worrying me a bit, plan for my car is I want it to be quick on the road and the odd track day. I was hoping with enclosed induction, 421 mani, full magnex system and ph3 cams and a remap I'd have an easy reliable well running 150 bhp with more mid range power than I've got now. Am I dreaming on a standard ECU?

Wouldn't bother, this why I can't be arsed with all this camming milarky on a standard ECU. I bought ph3s and I'm so so so glad I didn't have them put in. Yeah it's great pub talk to say you have a 150 hp saxo for the odd race against a sickly 172 (see above) but you have to rev the tits out of it and there's bog all torque low down, in essence the day to day driveability blows.

But I'm genuinely intrigued for CitroenSport what happens to the car - got to be timing that's the only thing left, unless the engine internals are totally fudged - also mate don't go taking it 8000 rpm (if the tachometer is to be believed) on the standard followers.

[blackie_2k5]

the fault only came up when it was re timed to catcams generic spec from what i can gather, but pulls alot better now.

[williamsvts]

ive had a play about with the timing for him. i think people think cammed vts' are going to be faster than they are. its a waste of money camming them imo. i would say go for boost or just make a good handling car and save yourself 1k for 0.1s quicker. the fault code was on before blackie, i check and cleared it to see if that was the problem.

[Darkslider]

Wouldn't bother, this why I can't be arsed with all this camming milarky on a standard ECU. I bought ph3s and I'm so so so glad I didn't have them put in. Yeah it's great pub talk to say you have a 150 hp saxo for the odd race against a sickly 172 (see above) but you have to rev the tits out of it and there's bog all torque low down, in essence the day to day driveability blows.



Given me something to think about there. I love the way my VTS pulls at high revs, if I could give it a bit more mid range beans without spending a fortune I'd be happy. That's why I was looking at PH3s, the blurb on them and various notes on this forum say that they increase mid range power with a remap which is what I want.

So can I get a decent amount of power coming in earlier in the revs with a standard ECU? Or is it honestly not even worth trying without standalone management like a Predator ecu or similar? I was expecting to have to take it to a reputable mapping company and get it rolling roaded either way, I don't imagine a £150 superchips plug in would quite cut it!

Thanks for the advice!