Perdator V Omex 600

[fairmorn308]

Whats everyones views regarding these 2 ecu's?

[dave_jenner]

Not got one myself mate, but heard better things about the Omex 600.

[Ross]

Omex. Accepted everywhere. Expensive. Custom Loom required. No (true) wideband support. many functions like traction control and launch control.

Predator is megasquirt based. Cheap. No loom required. Inbuilt hardware omex doesn't have. Not all mappers like megasquirt.

Second hand values remain strong with omex but not so with predator.

That's about all I know about the two. Luthor (Andy) is the man to ask for comparisons really.

[Dave_P]

Plug & play predator wins hands down for me.

[blackie_2k5]

predator for me tbh, youll get the majority saying omex as its a known brand name, but predator is half the price plug and play never mind mapping.

but it depends what you want from the ecu also?

predator runs my turbo fine, and made excellent figures, moving onto what ross said about mapping, any good mapper will take it on and map it, results may slightly differ if theyre not used to it, but andy offers to travel for fuel to map, also on what ross said about mapping megasquirt, when i told my mapper it was megasquirt based he instantly told me he hated megasquirt, "its dated tiresome and awkward"....but predator doesnt use megasquirt mapping software, it uses tuner studio, after 15 mins on the phone to andy... and a mapping session later my mapper told me its very good software and really easy to get used to, he manged to get 218bhp out of my vtr without having used it before, so it cant be that bad, also told me that andy was a very clever man when they were running through how he maps it :y:

both ecus have plus points and downfalls, but andy told me a while back that pred can now support electronic boost control aswell, something ill be looking for with my next remap

dont know masses about the omex so ill let others have their say on that :y:

but thats my views on pred

[Ryan]

The predator is the best bang for buck ecu on the market for the saxo. I believe now he has sorted the issue with off throttle rev control which a load of people were whinging about previously it's a good system.

[sliderz]

pred for me and the tech surport of andy is second to none

[AlexB]

The pred had its teething issues but all seem sorted now
still unsure if theres a 3 plug version yet??

My money went on an omex
Lots of options for launch controll clutch microswitches shift lights ect ect its proven on many cars has people all over the country who will map it and the loom means you can hide it away

If i had to make the choice again id still go omex

The support from the guys at nms seems on par with andy and if i ever broke the car my omex is still worth 400 quid preds seem to fetch much less

[tweeqd]

for cheap mapable systems there both good for a start
the pred being the cheaper of the 2 is a good start for a basic ecu same as with the omex, there are more mappers who will use it but again there a cheap basic system

[Ryan]

The support from the guys at nms seems on par with andy and if i ever broke the car my omex is still worth 400 quid preds seem to fetch much less

But if you break the car you don't have a standard loom still to simply Wang on another ecu like you do with the pred. That's the big thing.

[AlexB]

But if you break the car you don't have a standard loom still to simply Wang on another ecu like you do with the pred. That's the big thing.

true unless you sell ecu and loom
Itbs
bare engine

But that only works with specced motors a standard lump id agree slap a standard ecu back on and away you go

Another thing is the omex would appeal to a bigger market rathervthen just saxo/106 owners of a certain age car the omex needing wiring is universal allmost

[J222JRA]

I think it depends really on the person who will be uilding the engine and mapping it for you, take their advice.

Sandy Brown will be building my engine and he specifies DTA ecu.

[nazmitocak]

İ think it depends to the tuner :)
my tuner used to tune ms thats why he likes ms more than omex

[Sandy309]

I specify DTA for good reasons, I use all the main systems on a regular basis, but in my experience none can touch it for fast and accurate mapping, that seems to run the engines cleaner and hence stay on form longer.

[-shuggles-]

I specify DTA for good reasons, I use all the main systems on a regular basis, but in my experience none can touch it for fast and accurate mapping, that seems to run the engines cleaner and hence stay on form longer.

GMC Motersport also push for DTA :y:

[tweeqd]

GMC Motersport also push for DTA :y:

and when i became a dealer for DTA mny years ago and said about it on SSC john at GMC told me i was waisting my time and i should use KMS (at the time he was a dealer for KMS and making most profit on there units, much like ATspeed and omex)

sandy doesnt sell tthe units so you know when he surgests one to use its because its genuinly a better unit

[-shuggles-]

and when i became a dealer for DTA mny years ago and said about it on SSC john at GMC told me i was waisting my time and i should use KMS (at the time he was a dealer for KMS and making most profit on there units, much like ATspeed and omex)

sandy doesnt sell tthe units so you know when he surgests one to use its because its genuinly a better unit

I never knew that, seems logical why he pushed me to get a dta :y:

[Ryan]

Always good to get the opinion from a tuner rather than a dealer.

Nothing worse than a dealer pretending to be a tuner whos only advice is to scrap your current ecu because they want to sell you one of theirs.

[luthor1]

I "like" to think that the Predator is half the price fitted and more than half as good.

I always wanted it to allow people who could otherwise not afford it to go beyond 'bolt-on' mods and get that little bit extra without having to really get the snippers out.

I just hope it's a positive choice in the mix for people to make!! The fact that it's even a discussion rather than just a slapping kinda feels good! :)

Andy

[Gareth_R]

Depends massively on your mapper IMO - I know places local to me refer to mega squirt as megashit so I'd never take a pred to them as all you'd get is negativity and not as much effort going into the mapping

Each mapper has a particular system they like, or you'll get ones who will map anything.So ask and then gauge their reaction

[axsaxoman]

I specify DTA for good reasons, I use all the main systems on a regular basis, but in my experience none can touch it for fast and accurate mapping, that seems to run the engines cleaner and hence stay on form longer.

we are in FULL agreement --
not usual I know

[axsaxoman]

and when i became a dealer for DTA mny years ago and said about it on SSC john at GMC told me i was waisting my time and i should use KMS (at the time he was a dealer for KMS and making most profit on there units, much like ATspeed and omex)

sandy doesnt sell tthe units so you know when he surgests one to use its because its genuinly a better unit

total backbiting crap as usual

what i probably said in direct answer to a direct question was that at that time with kms being the only unit that had a plug + play loom adaptor it would be cheaper + do the same job.
I have used and map virtually all known ecu systems ,but DTA,for most applications is the best all round choice -=when fitting +product costs are taken into consideration --

nothing wrong with the predator ,for some applications--think we have supplied and or fitted 10units - but they do have limitations

profit margin was identical between dta +kms--just to keep things correct

--fitting costs of course would be more with a DTA or any other unit that does not plug directly onto the loom,

I know at least half of the installations we do the customer wants to use the std loom modifed ,but as all these cars are 10years old ,is that really the right way to go ?

bit like new shoes and old laces

[luthor1]

I know the limitation on the Predator is the fact it can't modulate ignition timing at idle to micro-manage the idle smoothness. The stock ECU does. Answer is to have the idle a little higher than the 850 stock and a fraction richer, but it's there as a limitation no doubt.

Throttle bodies are no probs though, idles smooth as anything!!

:)
A

[KamRacing]

and when i became a dealer for DTA mny years ago and said about it on SSC john at GMC told me i was waisting my time and i should use KMS (at the time he was a dealer for KMS and making most profit on there units, much like ATspeed and omex)

sandy doesnt sell tthe units so you know when he surgests one to use its because its genuinly a better unit

I shouldnt laugh but it almost sounds like we shouldnt make a profit. John has hopefully justified his reasoning, but ATspeed obviously like the Omex over others and push this as the best for their customers, but focusing exclusively on the product means they can get better prices as well for themselves and the customer (hopefully)

[axsaxoman]

.yes it does seem to be illegal to make a profit and pay all the overheads a REAL bizness has,
certainly not much incentive to develop new parts these days for any car

talking of PNP we just fitted a dta into a stock ecu casing and made it a direct replacemnt for the std unit fo someone who runs in a motorsport class which insists on std ecu being retained.
so you can have a dta PNP if you wish + keep std wiring --this only applies to single plug ecu,s and it does not use the stepper motor for idle control .If you had to pick up a short coming in the DTA ti is that it cannot run a steeprr motor idle control --but does it other ways.
I did consdier making a kit comprises of just that
dta ecu in std case +gmc cams + gmct/bodies --160-170bhp all in one box £1700inc vat ,just bolt it all on .

[tweeqd]

i didnt say you cant make a profit, but the most profit is not always the best option for the customer
i make less profit on genuine merc parts but i advise my customers they are better parts than pettern, sma as ECU's i make a profit on DTA but would advise any customer that a vipec unit is a much better ECU

and the cost of fitting was never an issue for me, you told me the DTA was not as good as the KMS an several occasion (but you also told me i couldnt get a turbo to work on a vtr engine in an ax)

as for the DTA in a standard case, martin at MEF has been selling them for a while

[axsaxoman]

and the cost of fitting was never an issue for me, you told me the DTA was not as good as the KMS an several occasion (but you also told me i couldnt get a turbo to work on a vtr engine in an ax)

your just a very sad person really ?
If you know so much why would you ever ask me things?
we only ever stocked and sold the KMS when it was the cheapest way to go for most customers
now its twice the price it used to be so not something i would ever suggest purely on cost verus functionality grounds
and I am certain i would have said that a turbo in ax was not impossible but would require alot of work to get the required clearance for rads etc .
I don,t even suggest fitting an s/c to an ax for same reason ,but when TAM wanted to do it i gave him all the help he wanted even made up some special parts for him .
check out u-tube AXO16v

and now your even saying that you don,t reccomend the DTA but a VIPEC
hands up how many vipec are fitted to saxo,s
only 1 uk dealer + thats not you

that will be cos you make more money on them ? and as they are not a well known ecu you are hoping that people will have to come back to you .
one of my main reasons for using/suggesting the DTA is the price and the fact that there are lots of other tuners who can work with them ,
suppose your customer falls out with you or you go out of biz ,for what ever reason --how does he get back-up then,
that is also one of the downsides to the predator .
trouble shooting at a distance --the more people that use an ecu or the more you use 1 type of ecu the better the back up is going to be for the customer.
I can understand atspeed sticking to the one make of ecu --for that very reason
the number of posts there have been through the years asking which is best ecu
ALWAYS my answer has been --which ever ecu your tuner prefers to use --as all ecu,s can do a good job if set-up correctly for a simple application like a saxo + t/bodies etc

start adding VVT +complicated boost control and other things like fully squential injection and the list of ecu,s gets smaller ,as does the people that can fit and map it correctly

[tweeqd]

i dont sell vipec units and never have so how can i make money on them
and theres are alot more than 1 dealer for them, as for working with them any good mapper should be able to map any system

there arnt any VIPECs fitted to saxo's as saxos are built on a small budget with low power, but as a mercedes specialist i dont worrk on many saxos anymore

[Ross]

there arnt any VIPECs fitted to saxo's as are built on a small budget with low power

lol...

[blackie_2k5]

ross martin's ax is probs gonna be running alot more then most 16vs and has had a fair bit spent on it aswell so hes justified in saying that for the majority really lol

[Ross]

However Its a bit unkind to imply all saxos are cheaply built and low power. And I don't even own a saxo ;) there are several saxos with more power than current btcc or wrc cars... Granted the budgets are somewhat different ;)

It's not like the vipec is even an especially expensive ecu. A touch harsh methinks!

Oh and not a dig at Martin, but there is only one Uk dealer for vipec - Ma developments. John was correct about that.

[tweeqd]

ross an AMG merc has over 400bhp out the factory so when they are modified the owners want alot more, and as for budget again on a car that cost £70k+ spending £30k on mods is not alot

saying the vipec was an example motec and haltec are other good units

[Ross]

Yeah I've heard great things about both vipec and motec :) I do see what you mean but it is harsh Martin to imply the other ecus are budget (omex etc) - the 710 is a good ecu IMHO.

[tweeqd]

dont get me wrong Omex and DTA and the pred are good units for the price range and great for saxos

i didnt say they wernt i was just making a point that there are better units out there but as with most things you get what you pay for

[luthor1]

I can add sequential injection, sequential ignition, throttle position/kPA target boost, nitrous control, water injection, flat shift....

but what's the point on a wasted spark/bank fire Saxo? I only have 2 coil drivers because it only needs 2 coil drivers, that's all you're paying for.

The mk1 predator was basically peeled back to basics to give people basic control over their engine, infact it turned out to be much better than I ever planned and now runs 218bhp turbo 8v's and good power throttle bodied cars!

I never meant to 'compete' with other ECU's, I expected to pick up small amounts of business from people who would buy "nothing" or "a Predator" not have people choosing the Pred over an Omex or other established brand. It was conceived to fill a gap in the market not take share away from other ECU's.

Andy

[tweeqd]

i dont want you to think im slating the pred andy i know andrew is very pleased with his and as a low cost option for an ECU its a very good choice

[raunchz]

I will happily go Predator again

[Sandy309]

saying the vipec was an example motec and haltec are other good units

I'd never heard of Vipec before you mentioned it. But we are regularly replacing supposedly or claimed "better" systems (Motec, MBE, Pectel, Bosch Motorsport, Life, EFI) with DTA on the cars I do for other engine builders and getting more satisfying results; including the features customers demand, such as flat shift, launch control, multi-fuel and more. Many systems promise more and end up delivering less, because they are over-complicateded with features that most people don't need and can't afford the time taken to set them up. The cars these engines are going into are often around £100,000 builds and about the same enthusiasm and commitment as many of the people on here. You'll see our Escorts winning events over all, beating far more sophisticated cars (such as Peter Lloyd's £450k Prodrive run Subaru on Jersey Rally last year, when he had Nicky Grist on the notes!). What's more, on these events, you'll witness our cars starting from cold instantly, idling smoothly all day and grunting out of chicanes from 2000rpm cleanly, while many others are changing plugs to get the thing running, struggling to keep it alive in the queues and falling off the boil badly if not kept in the best gear at all times etc.

The main reasons I like DTA is because it's so transparent and easy to get where you want it. With the mapping knobs, you can vary the fuelling and ignition immediately at any point in the map to see where it wants to go. Most systems make the (IMO) flawed assumption that you'll want to work to fixed AFR values; which is a really narrow minded way to map engines, but the dominant one. I couldn't map engines to my satisfaction without quick and easy manual control; which is something I've struggled to explain to several ECU suppliers, who either don't understand where I'm coming from or think I'm wrong. But I just want to find the way the engine works best, rather than conforming to their pre-conceived ideas about how it should be done.

[luthor1]

Sandy, can you give an example of a way in which either the Omex or Predator are making the assumption that you'll want to work with a fixed AFR? And to follow on from that, a feature or set of features on the DTA that the Omex and Pred don't have which give it increased ability to not work with fixed AFR's?

The reason I (and possibly other mappers) tend to work to a fixed AFR is because for a road engine having some headroom on the AFR is a healthier position to be in. We are often not trying to get the maximum power out of it under all circumstances. For example, part throttle 2500rpm could be 55mph cruise in top which we're going for 15.5:1, but if you're a racing car, you want that to be a more fuller mixture to prevent the possibility of lean over heating or a lean misfire if you're part-throttling through a slow 1st gear corner.

I think "it's quicker and easier to MAP" isn't something the customer cares about. I map my customers cars and they don't care how long I take, infact they seem to actually enjoy it!

If you could say "I can demonstrate making significantly more power" then at that point, if your system is more expensive you need to justify that over say them using mine with less power but having change left over for a stage 3 cylinder head which would mean mine makes MORE power.

See what I mean?

Andy

[axsaxoman]

dont get me wrong Omex and DTA and the pred are good units for the price range and great for saxos

i didnt say they wernt i was just making a point that there are better units out there but as with most things you get what you pay for

I must be thick
how can an ecu ,eg MOTEC that cost 4 or 5 times the price of a DTA or OMEX and takes 4 or 5times as long to set up be considered better in anyway for the customer when used on such a simple engine set-up as a saxo?
with the greatest of respect, the predator in its PNP form cannot be viewed the same as a DTA or OMEX. It has been made for a particular purpose at a price


I agree totally with most of what sandy is saying --(must have fallen into a parrallel universe this week LOL).

I will agree however , that you do get what you pay for --.not just with equipment costs ,

andy --i think you are bit "off the ball " with your last post I certainly would not map to just one afr level throughout the rpm /load range for various reasons and no race car is going to run at15.5 where any significant power is being produced

[luthor1]

I assumed Sandy meant at WOT, not variable loads, hence my comment that I map to 15.5:1 at cruise. You don't think I map 15.5:1 at WOT, 7500rpm do you! :D

I choose 13.1:1 for the whole of WOT. That's what I meant by fixed AFR. I've not had an engine blow up on me yet, and had pretty good feedback.

Now, if Sandy is making race winning engines 3 years on the trot, he knows what he's doing and will extract the last fraction out of it. I'm not in that league! But as you know, I charge <£100 for a full mapping session.

[Sandy309]

Re-writing this post to make it a bit easier to read....

[Sandy309]

By fixed AFR values, I mean having a set value to work to at a given area of the map, as you say, 15.5:1 part throttle or 13.1:1 WOT . From what I’ve seen, most Mappers work that way, typically 14.5/14.7:1 part throttle through to 12.8/12.9:1 full throttle. So aftermarket ECU manufacturers have developed the systems in many cases, to perform the simple fuel correction needed automatically and save the fuel table values. On the face of it a great idea and many systems are promoted and sold on that basis. There are two problems I have with that:

What is the ideal AFR? Text books suggest values as above; you’ll see best efficiency and power with those values and that’s that. Painting by numbers. Most Mappers are only responsible for producing the desired result on the day, to get paid; a level up from that they may want to be confident it’s not going to be coming back to be reviewed in the near future. But if you’re looking for the best long term performance, from the engine you’ve built, a broader view needs to be taken. The ideal AFR at any given speed and load will vary according to the engine and spec; if you get the right AFR and corresponding ignition values (injector timing and staging can be used too), the engine runs cleaner, uses less fuel, burns off waste well without depositing on the ports and chamber; which means it’s efficient and will keep running on target for much longer. On the other hand, if it’s mapped to textbook AFR and minimum best torque ignition (MBT), or worse still “safe” (ironic term), it will fall foul of deposits and un-burnt fuel over time, the map values gradually become less effective as a result and the problem continues to increase until the effects of bore-wash and misfires make the user aware.
By taking a more fluid approach to the AFR (and ignition etc), then I’ve found it will usually be apparent when the engine is running sweetly and cleanly at each speed and load area. Some engines even show a tangible change in note and when this occurs. When you have the feedback of seeing these engines apart after a season or period of use, you can see the effects of the way you mapped it and the engines I map on DTA, by what I feel is right, are the cleanest and in the race cars, often set their best lap times at the end of the season, indicating that performance is still optimum.

Lambda reading. The sensor, apparently, reads the relative Oxygen content of the exhaust. On a moderate spec, road-ish engine, that’s reliable most of the time. But more severe engines will often show misleading Lambda readings, as a result of partially burnt mixtures, exhaust scavenge robbing fuel or momentary misfires under rapid transient conditions (stamping on the throttle for example), leaky exhaust manifolds and even disused EGR passages. So I’ve found I have to be suspicious of the Lambda reading at times and look to what the rest of the picture is telling me.

The point of all of this, is that I feel I need immediate control of the fuel and ignition values, so I can quickly vary them to find what the effect is and search for the right response. DTA with the control knobs, is the only system I’ve found that with. (We are still waiting for promised OMEX knobs and the EFI ones are well over £1000) Also being able to clearly see all of the map, showing what you’ve adjusted, speeds up the process and helps me to project where the engine wants to go. Key tapping is too slow and clumsy by far to do that, the temps over take you and I don’t feel like I have control. Also being able to turn off interpolation helps to build the early map faster and create hard points to work from. Clear and obvious compensation values help too, something that can be very hard to read with other systems.
The net result is that the DTA jobs I do feel alot crisper and usually really good on fuel, but importantly stay that way. The GEMS based systems (OMEX, AEM etc), and Megasquirt based, I can usually get pretty nice on the day, but they go off over time in pretty much every case and I rarely get good reports regarding economy.

AFR (Air Fuel Ratio)
WOT(Wide Open Throttle).

[axsaxoman]

what sandy has described is the normal way any good tuner would make a map for best overall performance --it takes time .
the only reason i can see for systems to wander off over time is
wrong correction curves for air ,MAP and water ,dodgy s/h sensors ,wiring loom issues or the dyno cell ambient temp is not anything like what the car sees in the real world.
I do not think it is a design fault with the ecu,s or the DTA is any better in that respect --operator error or lack of understanding of how everything works inside the ecu,especially with the more complicated units which add corrections to corections to corrections if all the parameters are not set-up or do not show the mapper threal numbers while you are mapping on the primary screen

[luthor1]

Very interesting!

Sounds like all that is possible on all the systems, but this "knob box" allows it to be done faster on the DTA.

So if you're not looking at AFR's, what are you looking at? Exhaust gas temps in the manifold? Knock-link/knock detection headphones or something? Or just listening for the engine making a special 'noise'?

[Barry123]

Seriously seriously seriously interesting thread guys :)
Saviours of saxp at the moment.

[blackie_2k5]

Very interesting!

Sounds like all that is possible on all the systems, but this "knob box" allows it to be done faster on the DTA.

So if you're not looking at AFR's, what are you looking at? Exhaust gas temps in the manifold? Knock-link/knock detection headphones or something? Or just listening for the engine making a special 'noise'?

david (who mapped mine) has his "mapping box" along on mapping sessions, basically a cheap black box with his afr gauge, a lumenition knock meter and alarm, and a good quality boost gauge he T's in for mapping, alongside the laptop of course...

looking at getting a "knock link" myself, really handy and possibley save a small fortune if ever there was an issue.. wanted to go for the lumenition kit but its fucking mighty expenisve tbh.. could only find 2 dealers..

as with adsayer... very interesting reading :D

[Mr_P]

Seriously seriously seriously interesting thread guys :)
Saviours of saxp at the moment.

Ditto

Infact, I ran out of thanks pretty sharpish. :panic: