Hillclimb Furio?

[TomiX]

I would like to build a Saxo to compete in hillclimbs and sprints in the production class. The problem is that the class breaks are at 1400cc and 2 litre. There are a couple of VTSs in the larger class but I would like to build a Furio for the 1400 class. I understand the suspension is the same as the VTR so that shouldn’t be a problem to modify. The two engines look similar but are tuning parts for the TU3 interchangeable with TU5 VTR motor or are they completely different? It doesn’t matter that it isn’t going to make the same power as a VTR or S as I would be up against other 1.4s so do you think it’s worth a try?
Thanks for reading and I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.

[Gareth_R]

Can you do engine swaps? If so,

personally I would get either an AX GT engine running on a carb at 85bhp - should increase with a filter, decent mani and exhaust, and a tune up of the carb

OR

A pre cat AX GTi lump running 100bhp then a little extra with a decent filter, maybe a rallye inlet and a decent mani/exhaust system

both options enable you to de cat legally (though something in my head is telling me about new MOT rules which may cause an issue with decatting even on an engine swap) and have more power out of the box than the furio lump. Both are also 1360cc

[AXracing]

Depends on the class regs you are running to. Many classes will let you mix and match parts. For example you can normally use VTR parts on your Furio. Most people run the AX or 205s however as said above no Cat worry and there lighter. You can just enter a standard car for the fun of it. But if you do wish to tune its not hard to make a AX 1.4 run rings round most of the so called tuned 2lts if your a ok driver ;)

[gazza808]

very nice 1400 lump (IRC) selling on 106rallye, sandybrown built (IRC)
vossy i think will have a look give you an idea.

http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showthread.php?t=82886

what you can do

[jeffchiz]

You can buy a kit off catcam which turns the 1.6 16v vts engine in to a 1.4 16v engine IIRC its £2500 and you get cams, pistons and rods and you use a 1.1 8v crank

[Gareth_R]

Why would you bother spending 2500 when you could grab a 1.4 16v off the continent or Ireland for way less

[TomiX]

Nice idea Gareth. The regs for Roadgoing Production specify ‘the cylinder block and head must be externally identifiable as that fitted to the original model or a specified option’. Though the AX motor was a TU3, do the head and block look the same as the Furio version?

[TomiX]

Can you do engine swaps? If so,

personally I would get either an AX GT engine running on a carb at 85bhp - should increase with a filter, decent mani and exhaust, and a tune up of the carb

OR

A pre cat AX GTi lump running 100bhp then a little extra with a decent filter, maybe a rallye inlet and a decent mani/exhaust system

both options enable you to de cat legally (though something in my head is telling me about new MOT rules which may cause an issue with decatting even on an engine swap) and have more power out of the box than the furio lump. Both are also 1360cc
Haven't got my head round all the links and things yet!!
Nice idea Gareth. The regs for Roadgoing Production specify ‘the cylinder block and head must be externally identifiable as that fitted to the original model or a specified option’. Though the AX motor was a TU3, do the head and block look the same as the Furio version?

[TomiX]

Why would you bother spending 2500 when you could grab a 1.4 16v off the continent or Ireland for way less
I know all the 'sporty' Saxos in France from our Furio to VTS are called VTSs but do their 1.4s have 16v then?

[TomiX]

Depends on the class regs you are running to. Many classes will let you mix and match parts. For example you can normally use VTR parts on your Furio. Most people run the AX or 205s however as said above no Cat worry and there lighter. You can just enter a standard car for the fun of it. But if you do wish to tune its not hard to make a AX 1.4 run rings round most of the so called tuned 2lts if your a ok driver ;)
The class regs are fairly generous; engine, induction and exhaust mods are free but if the MoT requires a cat it must be fitted. Brakes are free and suspension is basically free except no rose joints so, there is plenty of scope for tuning.
I know the AX and 205 are lighter but i'd prefer to do a Saxo if poss. The fun for me is working on and developing the car to its best more than class wins

[AXracing]

I know all the 'sporty' Saxos in France from our Furio to VTS are called VTSs but do their 1.4s have 16v then?

No there all 8v sadly

[AXracing]

Though the AX motor was a TU3, do the head and block look the same as the Furio version?

They do to a point however there not really the same. I knew some one for many years who raced under the same class with a black top MPI head in a 205 rallye. However your guess is as good as mine to what would happen if some one complained. I had a AX GT with a AX GTI engine in. Again looks substantially different but no one appeared to be bothered.

[jeffchiz]

Why would you bother spending 2500 when you could grab a 1.4 16v off the continent or Ireland for way less
lol just because they are called vts's and they are 1.4's doesnt mean they are 16v's, they are still 1.4 8v's

only the names are different their engines arent any different, ask your self why did they develop that kit? its to use in races where you have to use a 1.4 engine, they wouldnt develop the kit if there was already a 1.4 16v engine lol

and you are paying for the cams, and forged pistons/rods not just standard quality ones

[TomiX]

[QUOTE=AXracing;5898147] However your guess is as good as mine to what would happen if some one complained. QUOTE]

I try to do things by the book 'cause knowing my luck someone would complain and I'd get my wrists slapped by the MSA!!

Am I right in thinking then that the difference between the HPs of the variious TU3s is the head, ECU and induction?

If so, are there any better heads of a similar appearance to pass scrutineering or if not, using the Furio head, what's the best course of action after all the usual breathing improvements?

Also, will a VTR exhaust manifold and induction kit fit the TU3 or would I require special ones?

[jeffchiz]

I would have thought any 8v head would fool anyone checking your car the rallye or xsi head with a 1.6 8v inlet and injectors would be the way to go for a standard looking engine, the s1 rallye inlet would be nice but that would stick out like a sore thumb lol

[TomiX]

I would have thought any 8v head would fool anyone checking your car the rallye or xsi head with a 1.6 8v inlet and injectors would be the way to go for a standard looking engine, the s1 rallye inlet would be nice but that would stick out like a sore thumb lol

It's only the head and block the have to 'look' original so a rallye inlet would be OK! Even TBs are allowed;)
Are these things still readily available? I wuold have thought with being fairly old cars and a popular upgrade, they'd be hard to find.

[Gareth_R]

You can 100% get a 1.4 16v engine, might be fitted to a Peugeot but Gav Sophia bush was going to fit one into an ax. However if the head has to look the same then that's out

Rocker covers are interchangeable so you can make the head and block of any 8v TU engine look pretty much the same

All 8v exhaust manifolds should fit any of the 8v engines, any Saxo exhaust will fit regardless of engine, it's really just a matter of choosing the best head, inlet, ad fuel management option

[jeffchiz]

You can 100% get a 1.4 16v engine, might be fitted to a Peugeot but Gav Sophia bush was going to fit one into an ax. However if the head has to look the same then that's out

Rocker covers are interchangeable so you can make the head and block of any 8v TU engine look pretty much the same

All 8v exhaust manifolds should fit any of the 8v engines, any Saxo exhaust will fit regardless of engine, it's really just a matter of choosing the best head, inlet, ad fuel management option

You can get a 1.4 16v in a 206 but that isn't a tu based engine would be like fitting a gti6 engine IIRC both are Xu I think

[Gareth_R]

Et3j4 engine is a tu3 Block, 16v head and VVT on the inlet cam

Ta

[baker556]

iirc someone on here fitted mild cams unmapped and a vtr inlet dyno'ed at 90bhp..

If you were to have a better cam, s1 inlet, mapped on a standard furio you could see nearly 100bhp.

But surely the best engine would be the 1.3 rallye 99hp out the box iirc, or the 1.4 xsi.

[jeffchiz]

iirc someone on here fitted mild cams unmapped and a vtr inlet dyno'ed at 90bhp..

If you were to have a better cam, s1 inlet, mapped on a standard furio you could see nearly 100bhp.

But surely the best engine would be the 1.3 rallye 99hp out the box iirc, or the 1.4 xsi.

that was samueljonburgess that had that furio even he said it was a waste of money lol

the most powerful 8v engine is the 1.6 xsi and that has the same gearbox as the s2 rallye and it has although only up by around 5 bhp over the 1.4 xsi, offers superior torque

[Gandi699]

Im gonna go with fitting a 1.3 rallye engine or 1.4 engine. However, have you considered a metro gti? The 1400 16v k-series in those can push 160 bhp with mods cams and bodies! 120 bhp can be had with a mild fettle

[jeffchiz]

Et3j4 engine is a tu3 Block, 16v head and VVT on the inlet cam

Ta

fair enough ill take that, but till missing the point a bit

Im gonna go with fitting a 1.3 rallye engine or 1.4 engine. However, have you considered a metro gti? The 1400 16v k-series in those can push 160 bhp with mods cams and bodies! 120 bhp can be had with a mild fettle

you fitting one of those engines in your vtr?

[TomiX]

Im gonna go with fitting a 1.3 rallye engine or 1.4 engine. However, have you considered a metro gti? The 1400 16v k-series in those can push 160 bhp with mods cams and bodies! 120 bhp can be had with a mild fettle
The K-series is a great motor but it's still in a Metro. Not my favorite car. Nothing personal but I'll stick with the Saxo thanks.

[Gandi699]

fair enough ill take that, but till missing the point a bit



you fitting one of those engines in your vtr?

Nah I'm keep my tu5j2 from a rallye, I dont need to conform to any regs ;)

[TomiX]

You can 100% get a 1.4 16v engine, might be fitted to a Peugeot but Gav Sophia bush was going to fit one into an ax. However if the head has to look the same then that's out

Rocker covers are interchangeable so you can make the head and block of any 8v TU engine look pretty much the same

All 8v exhaust manifolds should fit any of the 8v engines, any Saxo exhaust will fit regardless of engine, it's really just a matter of choosing the best head, inlet, ad fuel management option
Thanks. That clears that up in my head. I even have a spare VTR rocker cover in the garage!

My only other thought about the head for the moment is; will the rallye/XSi heads accept the Saxo direct coil pack or would they need the early set-up with plug leads which would give the game away?

If all the TU3s were the same bore and stroke, the differences in power are surely just down to variations in the top end and management so, I just need to swap head, inlet and ECU right? or is it not that simple?

I’m probably worrying over nowt but I don’t want to spend time and money doing something just to be told it’s not legal.

[Gandi699]

Thanks. That clears that up in my head. I even have a spare VTR rocker cover in the garage!

My only other thought about the head for the moment is; will the rallye/XSi heads accept the Saxo direct coil pack or would they need the early set-up with plug leads which would give the game away?

If all the TU3s were the same bore and stroke, the differences in power are surely just down to variations in the top end and management so, I just need to swap head, inlet and ECU right? or is it not that simple?

I’m probably worrying over nowt but I don’t want to spend time and money doing something just to be told it’s not legal.

My saxo coilpack fits the rallye/xsi no problems - just missing one securing screw

[TomiX]

http://www.106owners.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?138693-106-S2-1-4-8V-rally-sprint-car worth a read if you want to stay 1.4
Thanks Joe.
Very interesting thread. At first glance he looks to be in 'modified' rather than 'production' but, apart from stuff like plastic windows, much of what he's doing applies to my project too so will study with interest.

[TomiX]

My saxo coilpack fits the rallye/xsi no problems - just missing one securing screw
Cheers Gandi
Looks like the rallye/XSi head is the way to go then.

[Gareth_R]

fair enough ill take that, but till missing the point a bit

Yes digressed a little seeing as cant go 16v lol oops

[AXracing]

Induction is free. I ran alpha throttle bodies and ecu on my old ax. the heads do all look a like. do you have to run standard bore and stroke? If not how about a 1.3 crank in a vtr? you hay have to use a offset grind on the crank to bring it down to 1.4 though. Or you could just use a 1.4 block and crank on the vtr head.

[TomiX]

Induction is free. I ran alpha throttle bodies and ecu on my old ax. the heads do all look a like. do you have to run standard bore and stroke? If not how about a 1.3 crank in a vtr? you hay have to use a offset grind on the crank to bring it down to 1.4 though. Or you could just use a 1.4 block and crank on the vtr head.
Sorry but I’m short of sleep and brain is struggling with this tonight!

Yes, induction and exhaust are free except for needing a cat, and no mention of keeping original bore and stroke. Just that the block and head should be “externally identifiable” as the type fitted to that car and remain within the class capacity limit. Suppose it’s mainly to stop things like a BDA in an XR2 Fiesta or the 16v conversion Jeff mentioned.

VTR bore with a TU3 stroke would give you 1491cc. Not sure what you mean by an offset grind.

If the VTR head is a straight swap onto the 1360 block wouldn’t that be a better bet? A lot less work, I guess it must flow more volume than the 1.3s and it would be more plentiful (cheaper) than the rallye/Xsi ones. There has to be a catch?!

[Gandi699]

Sorry but I’m short of sleep and brain is struggling with this tonight!

Yes, induction and exhaust are free except for needing a cat, and no mention of keeping original bore and stroke. Just that the block and head should be “externally identifiable” as the type fitted to that car and remain within the class capacity limit. Suppose it’s mainly to stop things like a BDA in an XR2 Fiesta or the 16v conversion Jeff mentioned.

VTR bore with a TU3 stroke would give you 1491cc. Not sure what you mean by an offset grind.

If the VTR head is a straight swap onto the 1360 block wouldn’t that be a better bet? A lot less work, I guess it must flow more volume than the 1.3s and it would be more plentiful (cheaper) than the rallye/Xsi ones. There has to be a catch?!

The 1.3 rallye shared the same head as the later xsi and s2. You can pick up the s1/s2 engines quite cheaply but its the rarity of them coming up for sale, and I doubt you'd even find a 1.6 xsi engine with its domed pistons (not that you'd be using those but you get what I mean). About£150 would get you a full s2 engine to use for parts

[JamesR]

http://www.106owners.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?138693-106-S2-1-4-8V-rally-sprint-car worth a read if you want to stay 1.4

That is SO awesome!

[jeffchiz]

My housemate has a 1.6 xsi engine for sale pm stealth106

[TomiX]

That is SO awesome!
It is an amazing build. Something to aspire to!

[Dave_P]

Sounds like you've done your homework, if your serious about hillclimbing in the >1400cc proddy class you know the AX is the best option.

You'll never got a proddy class Saxo down to the weight of an AX.

[TomiX]

My housemate has a 1.6 xsi engine for sale pm stealth106
Thanks for that Jeff but, I need to sort out exactly what I’m doing before I start buying major parts like engines. Hell, I don’t even have a car to put it in yet!

It’s the first hillclimb of the season at our local hill this weekend so I am going to have a chat with the scrutineers there and find out exactly what engine options they will allow. That will give me a lot better idea of what I can work with and then I can start shopping My kind of retail therapy.

[TomiX]

Sounds like you've done your homework, if your serious about hillclimbing in the >1400cc proddy class you know the AX is the best option.

You'll never got a proddy class Saxo down to the weight of an AX.
Yes Dave, you are 100% right that the AX would be the smart option but; as my friends will tell you, I rarely take the easy route!

This thread and other searches I’ve been doing on here tell me that with the right parts (and money of course!) I can get some decent power out of the TU3.

I can’t imagine that there are many good solid AX shells left where the rust moths haven’t eaten through the tissue paper they use to make them (I had a Visa GT of the same era;)) and I don’t have the facilities or welding skills to rebuild a shell.

Plus, I like my Saxos. I know it will be harder to make one competitive than it would an AX or 205 but that’s much of the fun of it for me. Yes, I enjoy driving fast but I get just as much, if not more satisfaction out of designing and making things and solving problems. More of a James May than a Jeremy Clarkson I suppose!

[MiniGibbo]

I'd start by selling it for a 205/s1 tbh..