40mm DCOE Jenveys

[mattrallye]

Anyone know if 40mm Jenvey DCOE itb's are suitable for 16v or best suited to 8v? Cheers

[welshpug]

depends on spec, would imagine they'd be fine on a mild build, Sandy brown's best TU's are on GSXR bodies which are 42mm butterfly at 225+ bhp.

[jeffchiz]

i have 40mm jenveys on my 16v

[mattrallye]

Well I'm thinking around 170bhp with a set of ph3's or 708's. Any ideas if one of Sandy's 16v manifolds will be suitable?

[jeffchiz]

i have 155bhp on jenveys and 708's, the most powerful ive seen a standard bottom end produse is 167bhp with ph3 cams and atpower bodies (on a reliable road), dotn knwo if that included headwork though (dont think it did)

[mattrallye]

I'm thinking Sandy head, HC pistons, decent rods, cams, solid lifters and standalone. I already have a set of 40mm Jenveys you see which I'd ideally like to keep.

[jeffchiz]

any reason why you want to use 708's/ph3s? (if anything you would want the newer versions of the 708's, the 743's) but surely you'd want a wilder cam profile if going for hc pistons

my next move is to get some hc pistons, standard rods, arp bolts, and some new cams (cant remember the profile now) and some headwork which on average on northampton motorsport road gives bewteen 190-200bhp

[blackie_2k5]

sam you not want rods too? seems daft not to get rods if spending all that money

can pick rods up about £300-350 now..with ARP bolts..so youd knock the price of them off

seems daft not to when the rods will limit you on rev limit and cam choice to an extent?

[mattrallye]

Ok, I'll have to look into cam choice properly. I'm not after huge power but want a strong reliable motor than can take abuse.

[jeffchiz]

was told my matt at pug1off that rods at the rev limit ill be running will be sufficient with arp bolts, their 190bhp+ engine builds use standard rods,
dont get me wrong they dont advise everyone not to use forged rods, the white rallye they built that was on the front of pfc a few months back was a similar spec but is about 220bhp iirc with custom cams and im pretty sure that uses forged rods due to its rev limit

[jeffchiz]

Ok, I'll have to look into cam choice properly. I'm not after huge power but want a strong reliable motor than can take abuse.

well the power is there to be had by using different cams, ph3's/708's/743's are only popular because you can use them on standard pistons but if youve got hc pistons seems a waste of money to not fit some widler cams

[blackie_2k5]

they obvs know alot more then me..

but if i was putting all that money in...id want to put a tiny bit more in for rods..for the simple reason that if a rod failed

and id shit a set of high comps out..and rod bolts..and gaskets and mapping and all the other rebuild parts and labour etc

i dont think i could ever live with myself

thats the only reason my engine isnt forged..i cant justify the cost of a full build atm..and dont see the point in doing one or the other. Im sure you probs already thought of all this before hand haha..but thats my thinking tbh

edit- tis is just my thinking by the way lol...as ive just read it back and it sounds a bit arsey? not meant to be :) honestly the way i look at it..ive been tempted to buy a set of pistons for a while..but just think why..its just gonna blow a rod if i do lol

[jeffchiz]

i did price it up with rods, but the rev limit wouldnt be any higher than ive already got so was told not to, i wa going to skimp out of headwork but with a £400 saving i should be able to get that done

i think these were the cams i was told to get
http://www.shop.pug1off.com/product_info.php/106-gti-saxo-vts-rally-cat-cams-1321737-p-148

i know what you mean i was always baffled why people jsut put pistons in but not rods, even if it was jsut a peace of mind/ocd thing lol but considering my rev limit wont change ill be happy with oem rods

[Ross]

Standard rods with arp bolts are good for 7750 rpm and 300hp - seen a few cars running this setup fine (myself included).

[welshpug]

if you are going to ask Sandy to do the head he would prefer to choose his own cams, they wont be cat, the head can be altered to suit the cam type more accurately if he knows what's being used too, that includes the throttle body type as well.

Don't bother with cheap rods, ARP's aren't all they're made to be either, same as many of the cheap pistons out there, either do a mild build with hydraulics and notched std pistons, or do it properly with £1400 of rods+pistons, plus solids up top to cope with the revs.

[blackie_2k5]

ive seen this..lots

but was it beaniemoo that bought the "forged engine" and got mapped about 180bhp...and farted a rod out after leaving the pit lane?

no bolts...but can you prove it was the bolt that went and not the rod?

[Ross]

Hard to tell after the event but standard bolts are made of cheese ...

I totally see both sides of course. I now run forged rods but really only because I wasn't comfortable being the first to find out the hard way what they CAN take! Lol

[jeffchiz]

if you are going to ask Sandy to do the head he would prefer to choose his own cams, they wont be cat, the head can be altered to suit the cam type more accurately if he knows what's being used too, that includes the throttle body type as well.

Don't bother with cheap rods, ARP's aren't all they're made to be either, same as many of the cheap pistons out there, either do a mild build with hydraulics and notched std pistons, or do it properly with £1400 of rods+pistons, plus solids up top to cope with the revs.

what sort of brands are you mentioning? the wossner pistons/rods i was looking at were £900

[blackie_2k5]

Hard to tell after the event but standard bolts are made of cheese ...

I totally see both sides of course. I now run forged rods but really only because I wasn't comfortable being the first to find out the hard way what they CAN take! Lol

lol..previously wasnt bothered about being the first to find out how much it takes to burst a standard 8v...but having to foot the bill for 3x top end rebuilds...with 4 fully rebuilt heads..in the last few months

at 2x MLS per head..im not sure i want to find out anymore lol :(


what sort of brands are you mentioning? the wossner pistons/rods i was looking at were £900

agreed :detective:

[welshpug]

CP Pistons, CP rods or Farndon afaik is what Sandy uses, obviously to his own spec, so you wont be able to buy those yourself.

oh and omega sometimes too.

[blackie_2k5]

john gets the un branded PEC ones for about £350ish i think

[jeffchiz]

i think wossner will be good enough for my build..

on a side note have these sandy 225bhp engines been dyno'd at 225bhp yet? what what ive heard they havent been proven to make that power and ive been waiting for jp to get his engine fitted and get it dyno'd just looked on his thread its been dyno'd but sandy wont release the figures

i do understand about the fuelling issues though

[welshpug]

yes, they have been dyno'd at 225+

tbh, I think the two CCSC titles Nick Took with the SB engine speaks for itself, and that Will is now leading with an SB engine, lapping quicker than last years GMC engine...


you can't dyno an engine with it fitted in a car BTW :P but you can of course get it on a rolling road guessometer ;)

[jeffchiz]

are there any graphs on different roads apart from his own?

[welshpug]

he doesn't have a RR, the one he uses is not calibrated, doesn't need to be as its just used for mapping.

However the Engine Dyno he uses is fairly regularly calibrated I believe.


found this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67QykQtxMbk&feature=plcp

that was 219 @ 8500 and 146 lbft after 18 months of racing.

and the previous build to that one was this 200 bhp one, laid over a RR plot of the Gwynnespeed Saxo run at Powerstation as well.

http://www.goodhand.co.uk/sandy/files/NickCvsKitcar.JPG

[Sandy309]

i think wossner will be good enough for my build..

on a side note have these sandy 225bhp engines been dyno'd at 225bhp yet? what what ive heard they havent been proven to make that power and ive been waiting for jp to get his engine fitted and get it dyno'd just looked on his thread its been dyno'd but sandy wont release the figures

i do understand about the fuelling issues though

I understand why you ask the question and I assume by "dyno" you mean rolling road, but rolling roads just aren't accurate or consistent enough to be relied on like this. I engine dyno (calibrated/corrected test stand) my top engines most of the time (we ran out of time to do Josh's) and that is the most accurate way it's possible to do it. My top TUs are consistently giving the stated figures; but the figures do not tell the whole story. Driveability, mid range grunt and reliabilty from my race engines are what's given me four Saloon titles in succession in a series populated by many of the UK's top engine builders. My customers that have changed from other engine builders have all substantially reduced their lap times, found much reduced fuel consumption/lap and enjoyed total reliability. I'm far more concerned about that than a peak power figure and it's not really sensible to judge engines just on it; especially rolling road figures, which are easily manipulated or misread.

Wossner TU pistons are budget pistons and simply measuring the valve centres will reveal how accurately engineered they are. They need to be machined in almost every case and the material and design quality are not up to the price IMO. The retail price isn't much less than the brands I use, but they offer suppliers a bigger margin which makes them more appealing to sell; being the only ones commonly available off the shelf also makes them a default choice in many cases. You pay your money and take your choice, but I'd rather make nothing on a better set to know they are right. Rods are a similar issue and almost all budget ones have a hideous weakness designed into the cap, that makes them not much better than OE rods and far superior rods aren't that expensive in the context of a decent build.

In response to the original question, Jenvey DCOE bodies work fine on the right inlet manifold and although I prefer the GSXR bodies, I've no problem with the performance of that combination. There was a back to back on someones engine on here that proved them to outperform ATP bodies over the curve on the same engine IIRC (nothing to do with me). 40mm is only really going to work up to about 175-180bhp and may not be the perfect size for that, but if you already have them, makes sense to try them.

[gazza808]

john gets the un branded PEC ones for about £350ish i think

I can get I unbranded pec rods for £250 posted

[alex91]

are theey reliable running bodiies