Arp head studs and nuts, flywheel bolts

[littleblue1]

As stated above in need for 1.6 8v engine, or anyone no where I can get these from, I can only find them listed for a 16v engine?

[robster247]

Hya matey, how's things coming along ?

I think the flywheel bolts are the same through out the citroen/pug range but I could be wrong. If you send me the messurements I can check as I have a vts lump I'm going to be forging so will have a look

Also check your head bolts as I have some in my shed .

[axsaxoman]

why ?
std head bolts have never been a problem on any type of modified engine
waste of money to me

[robster247]

why ?
std head bolts have never been a problem on any type of modified engine
waste of money to me

Agreed, fair enough if it were a tractor puller where you see them explode and blow the head off haha

[axsaxoman]

aye and they run about 100lbs of boost

[tweeqd]

I agree with John, I run 2 bar on a t34 turbo and never had an issue with standard head bolts

[littleblue1]

It's coming along well engine is back from the engine building specialist, looks amazing!!! Engine and box back in at just sent head off to be gas flowed etc, an I've been told I need to run as I may get head lift as I'm gonna be running silly boost!? Everyone is saying different I may as well spend the money and do it properly! No point in cramping out as I have spent near enough £4000 on the engine and Ecu etc!

[littleblue1]

Tweedq what 2 bar on standard head bolts? What car? Surely if it running that sort of power why skimp on 150 quid or so!!

[welshpug]

Because £15 does the job just fine.

As will the flywheel bolts most likely.

£4k is nothing if it includes ecu etc, try three times as a min, using o.e stuff in the main...

[Ross]

Define "silly boost"? 2.5+bar? You building a drag only car presumably then?

Same as Martin here - standard head bolts in mine. 2 bar of boost, 400+hp. Save your money. And as Meirion said - £4k isn't a lot lol.

[axsaxoman]

and when you have fitted these studs + nuts how are you going to find correct tension to set them at
I had a customer who was s/c a car --very well known kit car maker who insisted on changing from std strech type bolts on this ford engine to studs and nuts --result was it caused distortion in the block around the studs showing up as distorted bores
he obviousl ytightend too hard and when the block expanded due to heat the studs did noy

that is why all car makers use strech bolts because they expand and contract along with the block+head as temps change
anyone noticed how tight the vts belt get when engine hot compared to tension when cold ?

thats how much the head expands ,its also why alot of people have problems with wterpumps going after changing belts --they overtighten belt when cold --so it is the stress the water pump bearings get when engine is hot
if you do not have correct" seims tension tool "
check belt tension when it is hot before fitting belt covers

[welshpug]

Pug XU10 and XUD bolts are not stretch type BTW, not are TU5 afaik, though the alloy XU are, I'd imagine alloy TU are also.



Millington use XU10J4 bolts in their Diamonds as it happens.

[axsaxoman]

as general rule its easy to tell
if you are given a low intial torque setting and then an angle for final tightening they are strech type , the other way to tell is if the maker specifys retorqueing of head bolts to a spcecfic torque a short time or mileage afterbuilding ,then they are not stretch type
strech is probabl ythe wrong term as what you are doing is torqueing the bolt to put tension on it to a level where the bolt is in its elastic zone .
this why you should measure used bolts and if they are longer than new ones -time to replace them as they have lost some of their elastic properties

[littleblue1]

4k is just the start guys! And I'm not building a drag car lool I ask for advice ad I get silly comment which I don't want either comment something useless or don't bother at the end of the day, I asked for advice not bullshit! And yea about the torque setting I know, I'm not a complete retard !

[Ross]

Where was the silly comment? You said you're running "silly boost". What's that then? Several people (myself included) run 2bar of boost - so under that isn't "silly" it's "normal". So - natural to presume "silly" is over 2bar.

In turn, safe to assume if you're running 2+bar of boost that it's a specialist build not a road car. Something like a drag car maybe. :S

People gladly give advice and you've already had several very experienced turbo builders/owners post on the thread with sincere advice - so why the arsey reply?

[littleblue1]

So I may word something wrongly like silly boost or whatever I do appreciate the adice just sounds like to me your trying to make a dick out of me!! I'm aiming to be running 20-22 psi so in ur eyes not silly boost, surely headbolts can't withstand the pressure created at that boost, I just want to make sure and be safe or do u 100% reason standard headbolts would be 100% fine?

[tweeqd]

Im runnin 30psi as stated and have direct port nitrous to add aswell and see no need for arp head bolts

As a company i advise what i think is best for the customer from my own experieance
Im not one of these companys that tell you you NEED to buy £5k worth of fancy shiny parts to build an engine

[Ross]

Out of thanks, but "thanks" Martin. :)

[axsaxoman]

thats ok then i will keep my "bullshit" gained from 40 years of experience to myself

[01amatti]

Asked a question.. Called all the answers bullshit... Seems legit

[wadoryu]

Asked a question.. Called all the answers bullshit... Seems legit

From some of the most experienced people with these cars.........

[e8_pqck]

150 is a lot of money. Decisions like that make a 4k build into 8k.

The fly wheel bolts ate already HT and of good quality so no need to change either.

[littleblue1]

lool okay not bullshit at all, thanks for all the advice guys sorry I was a penis! Much appreciated again ill stick to standard head bolts, also changing the subject anyone of you guys know who can make a turbo manifold? As I want to change to equal length pipes etc, if so point me in the right direction please

[e8_pqck]

lool okay not bullshit at all, thanks for all the advice guys sorry I was a penis! Much appreciated again ill stick to standard head bolts, also changing the subject anyone of you guys know who can make a turbo manifold? As I want to change to equal length pipes etc, if so point me in the right direction please

Expensive. Make sure they are actually equal length and not just knocked up in a garage and made to fit. Some that were measured on an auricle I read weren't even close. I designed a few on cad using standard weld els and got to within an inch but you will be lucky to get it exact.

Not sure the tolerance on the dp stuff or cituning manifolds. Just be careful that something that looks nice might not work as well as you think.

[axsaxoman]

what bhp are you going for --as making an equal length ex manifold will be very hard due to space restrictions and to be honest all these exoctic tubular manifolds are more about bling than performance ,unless you are going for the ulitmate bhp at very high rpm .
providing ther are no size restrictions going into and out of the turbo it will make sod all difference ,and if you were down on power slightly --just raise the boost to compensate .
I frimly beleive that the dp type manifolds are too large a dia and that will slow down gas speed making lag even more of a problem --but that my opinion
work out cross0sectiona larea of turbo inlet and you will se what I mean
i would worry more about keeping things cool under the bonnet ,the right oil flow through turbo and correct water cooling Ie a pump water cooling system for the turbo ,than manifold primary lengths
the only way you will get any real advantage from an equal length ex manifold to the turbo is if you had the turbo at the correct distance from head to get the advantage of tuned length of the maifold --
have a hunt for a picture of a turbo INDY CAR or F1 trubo car ad you will see the turbo is a long way back from engine to get the adavantage of tuned length and that on a saxo will mean the turbo will be onto of g/box or underneath car around where the cat is on std car .
once you go away from tuned +equal lengths just make it easy to fit keeping turbo high ,to get good oil return to sump and turbine shaft level and as much cool air to it as possible .
what type of turbo are you going to use + what is target bhp @what rpm?
I ask this as it seems you want to do things the best possible way .

[littleblue1]

Okay that makes sense about the equal length pipes I have been doing research into the dp manifolds and like u stated above people are saying the size of the internal diameter of the pipe is to big meaning poor flow, ATM I am using I believe it's a ci-tuning manifold it kicks the turbo over to the right, of course I had to move the actuator as it was fowling the crank sensor, I'm currently running only a T25, I'm looking into getting a bigger turbo but I'm really really running out of space between the inlet housing and the rad, for power wise I dunno wether I'm dreaming but I want to aim for anything between 230-300, yea like u said at the bottom I want to do this build properly and not some Bodge job this is my first build so excuse my lack of knowledge guys, as for the space between the turbo and rad any advice on that as I have already moved the rad towards the front my 50mm and can't see how I'm going to get any more room etc?

[Ross]

Move the rad basically. Weld in a new lower cross member, mount the intercooler and radiator to that - in FRONT of the crossmember, not behind it. You'll need to do some fairly extensive modification to the bumper but with care can keep it looking standard from the outside.

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab74/rossdagley/106%20Turbo/153958aa.jpg

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab74/rossdagley/106%20Turbo/18101ce7.jpg

The main problem with the DP manifolds is the flanges aren't flat. I've never seen one that is - and mine was bad enough to rip out a manifold stud.

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab74/rossdagley/106%20Turbo/IMG_0141.jpg

[littleblue1]

U say about a pump water cooling system for the turbo can u explain a bit more in depth sorry if I sound silly haha

[Ross]

U say about a pump water cooling system for the turbo can u explain a bit more in depth sorry if I sound silly haha

Put the turbo on it's own seperate water cooling system - it's what I've done. Ideally you'd remove the standard water pump too and have an electric pump for that.

With the turbo on a seperate water system, there's no issues with it getting water from the main cooling system like some people have had. Often people use a T into the heater matrix pipes, but that's less than ideal as there's no way without a restrictor to force water through the turbo cooling system. The dedicated pump is the best solution. Means more wiring and more plumbing though of course.

With the full engine on it's own pump, you can circulate the water on a turbo timer after the engine is switched off. Much kinder to the engine.

Most people are absolutely fine doing it the "old fashioned" way though (into the heater matrix pipes). I was for years. Only changed it now due to the value/lead time of my turbo and because I'm running high boost.

[Rowan]

Check out this (http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=432005) thread mate

[littleblue1]

I see what u mean about the flange on the dp manifold I wonder why that is :/ and so basically cut out the old slam panel and weld a new cross member in to achieve the clearance, I see what u mean about big power Ross :0 I like it :D only thing is I'm doing all this work outside with the car ramp lool , usay mods on the bumper as in?

[Rowan]

The flanges contract and expand due to the heat produced by welding, thus the flanges warp.
Especially stainless steel suffers from this as it dissipates heat much slower than regular mild steel.

[Gandi699]

Put the turbo on it's own seperate water cooling system - it's what I've done. Ideally you'd remove the standard water pump too and have an electric pump for that.

With the turbo on a seperate water system, there's no issues with it getting water from the main cooling system like some people have had. Often people use a T into the heater matrix pipes, but that's less than ideal as there's no way without a restrictor to force water through the turbo cooling system. The dedicated pump is the best solution. Means more wiring and more plumbing though of course.

With the full engine on it's own pump, you can circulate the water on a turbo timer after the engine is switched off. Much kinder to the engine.

Most people are absolutely fine doing it the "old fashioned" way though (into the heater matrix pipes). I was for years. Only changed it now due to the value/lead time of my turbo and because I'm running high boost.

Just out of interest where do you store the water for the turbo cooling system and how do you cool it?

[Ross]

The flanges contract and expand due to the heat produced by welding, thus the flanges warp.
Especially stainless steel suffers from this as it dissipates heat much slower than regular mild steel.

Exactly this.

I spoke to them about it and they've changed their jig that holds the manifolds but they say it's still a problem. IMO, they should make simply start with a thicker flange in the first place, do the welding, then plane it flat. Simple solution and I don't know why they don't do this.

basically cut out the old slam panel and weld a new cross member in to achieve the clearance, I see what u mean about big power Ross :0 I like it :D only thing is I'm doing all this work outside with the car ramp lool , usay mods on the bumper as in?

The lower brace - the upper slam panel remains as standard. That photo is from my first build - circa 300hp so not big power. A lot has changed since then lol.

Mod the bumper - as in, cut out basically all it's internal supports and bracing so you're just left with the outer "skin" of the bumper (the shiny bit!). The innards are there as crash dampening as standard - no need for em as if you crash a 300hp saxo, you'll likely be going too fast for 6 inches of plastic to have any effect...

Just out of interest where do you store the water for the turbo cooling system and how do you cool it?

Cool it through a mocal 13 row oil cooler, fed by a small header tank (the GMC ones are really good for this).

[Rowan]

I spoke to them about it and they've changed their jig that holds the manifolds but they say it's still a problem. IMO, they should make simply start with a thicker flange in the first place, do the welding, then plane it flat. Simple solution and I don't know why they don't do this.

A thicker flange and skim it after would be really easy and effective, don't get why they won't do this.

Just for information, there are techniques for this with the use of copper plated or even partial copper jigs that take absorb the heat and so minimize the warping.

[littleblue1]

How far did u extend the cross member mate? And I take it the mocal cooler is just for water cooling for the turbo? And with a fully built engine am I dreamin about bhp from 230-300 in a vtr?

[littleblue1]

I read that thread Ross about running from heater matrix to turbo then bk, is it literally extend heater matrix line ( which one ) to turbo ( will it only flow one way ) and then literally from water return extended water line back into the heater matrix? I would of thought there would be no way the water will reach bk up I the heater matrix excuse me if I'm being dumb :/

[Ross]

How far did u extend the cross member mate? And I take it the mocal cooler is just for water cooling for the turbo? And with a fully built engine am I dreamin about bhp from 230-300 in a vtr?

I'm afraid I don't know a lot about what's possible with the 8v engines - there are more experienced people than me by some margin wrt those engines. 300hp is a powerful setup from the 16v engine though, I'd not expect an 8v to realistically get there without mega friendly rollers... Opinion though, not fact!

The mocal is just for cooling the turbos water system. Obviously there is another mocal for the oil cooling.

Lower cross member is moved forward by about 2 inches iirc. Just got to kinda offer it up. Just use 1x1 box steel cut to the right length, offer it up, gauge what looks right then weld it in. Doesn't have to be exact as you can adjust the lengths of the boost pipes to suit.

Remember to only tack it in place then trial fit with the intercooler on so you know how much to remove from the bumper. If you mount it too far forward you might not get the bumper over it.

[littleblue1]

okay thats a fair comment to be honest about the power i will say this i made 172.5 atw on my little gt17 shity first set up tiny intercooler bodge job basically lool ive now upgraded everything blah blah blah hope to see some sort of decent figure it just takes such a long time lool! but yano, and okay so basically like u saidtack everything together etc and offer upthe bumper to see if she wil fit back on , i did want to go 16v but i had already started pumping money into this engine so i gave up with the idea and stuck to 8v its already nippy gives me things a run for its money etc, i just want to do this build properly and i want to get as much as i can out of this little 8 valve, what turbo do you think i should be running, i dont want to wait a week for boost to come in though haha, is it worth getting a custom manifold made up? what size pipe would i need in theory then?, and as for my other comment i made about water feed is that correct?

[Ross]

Just leaving work so can't answer in full.
Turbo wise 300hp will need something like a gt2860rs, gtx if you can afford it. It's always a balance of power vs response. Sonny runs a HTA with good response. I run a full hybrid based on a GTX28 also with good response, but you'll need to get your wallet out for either of those.

[littleblue1]

whats the next step up or fews steps up from the t25 then haha? and how much we talking for those ? and okay mate answer when u can going home is more important lool, just to rub it in been home since 11 with a full days pay :P

[axsaxoman]

my opinions here
the turbo cooling i would not run seperate rad =header tank but just fit a pump incircuit with the water cooling hoses and yes a turbo timer is good
as for turbo choice ,as you are making your manifold I would look seriously at one from an evo --you can get 360 bhp from std evo turbo --so no shortage there
it is very small compared to gt28 and will spool up alotquicker as well and as you going to be only needing 300 at best it is a good small compact unit
plenty of actuators made for it --even 4 port ones so you can ,with the right ecu control boost at all rpms--making it easier to drive
downside is flange is different from gt series .which i think is why most keep to those gt units
you could always look at the unit used on the ds3/bmw mini engines ,but that requires more electronic control ,they are good for near 300 and are even smaller

your problem with getting high bhp from the 8 v is just that its an 8v with only 1 camshaft ,so you are fixed with inlet to exhaust timings .
i have no doubt it can make over 300 ,as we have had n/a engines making 180bhp , then add 1bar of boost and that should be over 300 ,but that will mean lots of revs ,probably t/bodies+ boost to make it run nice at low speeds ,
no way could you run single t/body and that power and be a civilised low rpm due to cam profile required to get the bhp
it is well known on here that I would prefer a s/c than turbo due to all the heat issues + traction problems that simple turbo conversions give -- most i have seen on an 8v was just over 210 @fly@1 bar , with std head +valve sizes and mild cam and that was not using stand alone but sigcon +mf2+ 2 extra injectors --along time ago before stand alone became cheaper but that also ran lke a std car at low rpms
your goal is possible if you go about it in correct way

[littleblue1]

Sounds like a good idea to use a smaller turbo with better possibilitys ,

the management I'm going to be usin is the predator ecu andy off saxp makes I ha him make me up a 3 plug ecu, is that capable of controlling boost at certain rpm?

And the flange surely I ciudad get a flange made up to suit the turbo an then weld that to the manifold of even get the company making the manifold to make the flange as I'm paying them lool!

The other question I was going to ask I have like into using the valve out of the 1.3 8v rallye head , but I can't find a 100% answer ty will work have u hear anything about this?

And as for the vtr on sigcon that's a fair bit of power just running 2 extra Injectors etc, so I hope to clear that with the right set up I'll be pissed off if I don't lool!

[littleblue1]

List of parts

Forged pistons and rods
Lightened and balanced flywheel and clutch ( whole engine balanced together )
2.5" straight through exhaust
500cc injectors
Standalone ecu
Tubular manifold
Rallye inlet manifold
Large front mount intercooler
2.5" pipe work
Oil cooler
Getting alloy rad this week
Turbo timer
Boost guage
Oil pressure/temp guage to keep eye on things
Manual boost controller
But to come is electronic boost controller

Probably missed bits off

[welshpug]

pipework looks a bit bit, what's your turbo outlet and throttle body size?

[littleblue1]

Sorry not 2.5 it's 2.25" guys throttle body is off a rallye my turbo outlet is 2.25

[tweeqd]

Rallye inlet makes it very laggy

Yu can get big power from the 8v but its delivery is very different to the 16v
I had 262bhp at 1 bar with my t34 but it came in very sharp and went from 90bhp to 262bhp in 500 rpm

The same turbo on. 16v has a wider spread of power and makes 280bhp at 1 bar
With a better exhaust manifold my 8v would of made well over 300 bhp but would of been very hard to drive

[blackie_2k5]

i aggree with martin on the rallye inlet, ive ditched mine now for plastic inlet, drives so much better off boost and increased my spool up by at least 500rpm.. close to 1000

going to be fitting a gt25R to my 8valve in a few weeks, so be interesting to see what power it makes, plan to run about 16 psi on

[littleblue1]

Okay fair enough guys, does it do anything power wise as in increase bhp or does it literally increase lag? I was told the plastic inlet was good for around 150-180? And okay blackie let me know what she makes on dyno with the gt25r

[blackie_2k5]

I'd say the plastic one should be good for around

250 Bhp I'd have though, maybe a little more, I'm running a bar no issues on one

[blackie_2k5]

Andover runs better without, only thing it's good for is bling

Going to get mine mapped without, then try rallye inlet again, if it laggy ill remove it, if not ill keep it as it looks much better

[littleblue1]

Okay yea, people obviously have different opinions about things, I wa pushed towards getting the rallye inlet lool so an deffo going to try it like I said if its too laggy off she comes basically! I need a manifold making up but where from lool?

[K567]

For me and my best advice having gone down the route of listening to advice from those in the "Know" as I say.
No one ever builds or gets an identical setup, even if they copy another...
So as I found with several of my builds where looking at varying options especially when learning, take all advice on, then make your own choices.
My last really big build I was told everything I was putting together in the format I was doing it wouldn't work. I finished and took it to a dyno day for its break in and on the break in map it made 450hp first run at 14psi, 3 weeks late and 8 more hours on the dyno I had a solid 970 at the wheels on a VR6 running a turbo that everyone said wouldn't work, on a manifold that I was told wouldn't work, on an intake manifold I designed and built myself, with head work that people said was mad.... and so on and so on....
Listen to what people say 100% and you'll only ever make what they have made, look into the theory and technology a lot more, learn the craft and take a few risks you may surprise yourself, dont
As for the ARP question, the stronger your engine is what's the harm in that?

[Ross]

Sounds like an interesting project. What turbo where you running on which fuel to get those sort of ponies? Must've been a nightmare to put that sort of power down!

[littleblue1]

True say a u said I've been taking on board what everyone has been Commenting about etc! Who makes manifolds as that is my next issue. Need to get 1 made up as soon as possible! My head work is on hold atm as I need a manifold lool, anyone?

[blackie_2k5]

i aggree in part, forums do come with alot of hear say which can often cloud judgements

on the manifold etc.. as i keep saying on here, go to a local fabricator.. or if you know of one, decent exhaust place

quality will be good, price wont be fucking stupid like the dp stuff etc

and youll get it tailored to your needs :)

if you want some off the shelf decent items.. pm "seniorGT" on here, he can make them up, decent prices, good looks.

as posted on here already.. dont need a fancy mani to get good gains, lots of cars can get more power on a crappy cast manifold then could ever really use on the road.. so in 90% of cases, youre just paying for bling

[K567]

Sounds like an interesting project. What turbo where you running on which fuel to get those sort of ponies? Must've been a nightmare to put that sort of power down!

it was back in 2004 took 3 years to build
engine was 12v VR6 about $60,000 worth everything was custom
block started as a 2.9 was bored out and darton sleeved to 3.1
head started as a stock ones and then went through several cnc porting, valve sizing, flow benching and testing until we got what i wanted all in all about 10 different heads
pistons and rods were all billet customs running 8.2:1
crank was billet
cams were custom grinds
flywheel was custom billett alloy with carbon facing running a tilton custom triple carbon clutch with progressive clamping to 2300flbs enough to hold 2000 hp and 1700flbs of torque
Turbo during build and test was a Turbonetics T76 .92 AR exhaust then i moved to a Garrett GT42 ceramic bearing with a custom Exhaust side running 36psi
Exhaust manifold was as simple as they come, 6 into 1 and 9 inches long, one of the best parts of the VR6 is the design of the head intake and exhaust ports each being sized to equalize flow over the comparative distances, we just refined it
from there it was 3 feet x 3.5" total exhaust under the car and a 1.5" wastegate
intake was a trial and error again ended up being a short matched runner with 30 and 45mm trumpets inside a coned cylinder that held sufficient air to fill each runner and cylinder 4 times over per pulse approx 2700cfm's
intercooler was again custom it ran contstant ice water going through 3kg of ice per pass and then was also cryo cooled also making an intake air temp of between 27degree's and 36 degree's from at peak 420degree ( thats fahrenheit not celcius )
Ran a 50shot of nitrous on the track to spool it up in 1st and 2nd gear and then ran by itself from 3rd gear and 4000rpm making power all the way to the 8500rpm redline
injectors 6x1200cc primaries running at 90% max 6x800cc secondaries running at 80% max that kicked in when nitrous switched off

putting it down required at the time the best gear box we could use which from the 1.8T, there really wasnt anything we could do with the gears apart from cryo treating blew 2nd gear 7 times just warming up the tires in the water box, probably due to the 26x10 slicks :) ran a custom quaife LSD
axles were driveshaftshop customs
suspension were custom valved and sprung bilstein PS9's with a custom rearend running 400lbs springs and the front also ran drag straps along with ladder bars set at 1.4"

car only went down the track 15 times on the clock in the early days and shake down only running 20psi making 11:10's thats what i wanted people to know
off the clock i ran the 36psi full power and best time was 9:47 this was because it was a new beetle and had intentions to run at the money races against the muscle car guys
very first run in its early days i beat a 700hp chevy impala that got a 90ft lead on me i think i have a video of that somewhere lol

Fuel wise..... VP racing C16 all the way started with C11 changed to C16 supplied by 3x bosch 044 on -8 to 3way Y block then -14 with a -8 return, custom aeromotive regulator at 4bar static rising at 1.5:1 and aeromotive fuel pump and nitrous controller 2 gallon fuel cell plus a .5 gallon secondary cell for return and warmup/cooldown running regular fuel had about ran pretty much a full tank per run

with everything we managed to get the car down to 1045kg's from approx 1800kgs

all in all 3 years hard work about 900 hours, about $150,000 ...... and then the wife divorced me.... parted it all out for about $25k took a year out and moved back here...

[K567]

forgot to add..... when i started the plan alot of people said it will never happen as at the time i was planning and doing things no one else had or would have thought would work on a vr6...

[Ross]

Sounds pretty epic to be fair dude!

I'd love some pics if you have any - my engine builder is predominantly into huge spec VAG stuff so if love to send him some if you have any?

[K567]

Sounds pretty epic to be fair dude!

I'd love some pics if you have any - my engine builder is predominantly into huge spec VAG stuff so if love to send him some if you have any?

there was a whole build blog about it on vwvortex, just been trolling it to see if i can find it, was archived and deleted a long time ago, my accounts been inactive for 9 years lol

i have a couple of crappy early vids from the first time we started it up and put it on the road pm me your email ill send you them...

[Saxdaniel]

Sounds like an immense build and a lot of fun. Didn't understand a lot of the numbers but you seem to know your stuff ;) would love to spend my time on a project like that. If I had te money that is!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[littleblue1]

Oh my lord that's some serious serious motoring right there Darren! Crazy guy! Wish I could of seen it u best be putting up some videos yanoo! I've already rung around about making a manifold and there saying they won't make 1 up so I've got a few more options try find another fabricator or buy the dp engineering manifold and be done with it!!!

[Ross]

I've PM'd you dude :)

[axsaxoman]

Sounds like a good idea to use a smaller turbo with better possibilitys ,

the management I'm going to be usin is the predator ecu andy off saxp makes I ha him make me up a 3 plug ecu, is that capable of controlling boost at certain rpm?

And the flange surely I ciudad get a flange made up to suit the turbo an then weld that to the manifold of even get the company making the manifold to make the flange as I'm paying them lool!

The other question I was going to ask I have like into using the valve out of the 1.3 8v rallye head , but I can't find a 100% answer ty will work have u hear anything about this?

And as for the vtr on sigcon that's a fair bit of power just running 2 extra Injectors etc, so I hope to clear that with the right set up I'll be pissed off if I don't lool!
sorry if I misundertood you .
I thought you were making the manifold
it doen,t suprise me you are finding it hard to get a one -off made
they would need the turbo + the car etc to make it a good fit giving clearance to everyting that requires it.
yes they could make a flange to fit what ever turbo you chooose --you can possibly see now why people tend to follow whats been done before .
I cannot see why using a rallye inlet manifold shoul give extra lag ,yes its larger volume ,but if that extra volume causes a problem --then its just showing up the mis match of the turbo to the engine and not an inherrant problem with the manifold.
certainly for the power you are looking for i would not want to run a plastic inlet --too much pressure ,anything over 1 bar is asking for trouble on a plastic manifold . and with a turbo it will be seeing that pressure for alot more time than with a s/c ,as the s/c will only get to max pressure at high rpm,s and turbo wshould be hitting max boost from below or around half the rpm range .
i would talk to andy i ,m not sure if the predator can run a 4 port turbo valve (push+pull actuator) to give you full boost control over all rpm,s

[tweeqd]

Youve argued for years a big. Intercoolerwill causelag and now your saying a bit inlet plenom wont have the same affect :wall:

It caused lag on my t34 and also made a t2/t25 hybrid not boost till past 4k where as the same setup and turbo with a plastic inlet came on boost before 2k and ran 18psi for 10k miles without a problem
So you still think the inlet will make no difference ?


Ive also built a turbo vtr for a customer with a td04 and the s1 inlet raised the boosting point over 1500 rpm up on a plastic inlet, needless to say he swapped straight back to the plastic inlet

[axsaxoman]

no what i am saying ,if you read it carefully, is the extra volume in the plenim will make it MORE laggy than with a smaller plenim,as it takes time to fill and I am presuming you used same t/body on both ?

OR IF the turbo is not a good match to engine size --which most the ones used are not ,
not if you want full boost to start at a sensible rpm then volumes will effect lag .
to have full boost coming at around 4k ,WHICH IS WHAT A GT28 WILL DO --more than half the engines rpm range is not a good match .
I know why they pick that --its cheap and most people do not want to add enough control on the turbo ,electronically to make it a civilised drive, that they can take out on a wet day and feel confident of whats going to happen why full power is applied
they are just after "pub numbers"
picking the right ecu and you can have traction control relatively cheaply
4 wheel speed sensors (abs ones don,t work ) and a DTA s80 and you can have it all and still use your gt28 ,but it will not be such a animal to drive when it comes on full boost or exiting corners

back to the inlet problem
I have to say I cannot understand why after initial lag why it should not give same boost at same rpm ,could it be the transient time to fill it is enough time for the engine to have got to a higher rpm before you see the boost when driving on the road? .
a test on a dyno at fixed engine rpm +flatten throttle will show the truth or in top gear at 2k and then flatten throttle and see

I am open to your interpretation of why a better shaped inlet manifold ,which gives gains on n/a car causes a problem on a turbo car unless it is caused by bad turbo match .

DP go for a huge capacity inlet manifold + t/body -which i think is a waste of time , but it is alloy and will take the pressure

[Ross]

The DP plenum isn't very well designed imo - I don't know how much flow work went into it but I suspect not a lot if any. It does flow "better" than the plastic inlet and back to back testing over the vts/gti plastic inlet show good gains - but I don't recall ever seeing back to back testing on the C2 inlet vs the gti inlet mind you...

My friends inlet is one of the best I've ever had the privilege of being close to and is incredibly well designed:

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/841061_591311827564096_2063574725_o.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/841213_591311920897420_202559614_o.jpg

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/860335_591312067564072_277247194_o.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/823455_591312197564059_1780949956_o.jpg

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/858716_591312267564052_1654576792_o.jpg

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/841061_591312117564067_1304952388_o.jpg

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/820641_591312277564051_2140879872_o.jpg

[littleblue1]

im gonna try the rallye inlet and see what happen takes both of those to the dyno and do test runs on both inlet manifolds and see what happens! as for the dp mani i think im gonna have to stick with that even tho you guys are advising not to, no one around here is up to making a manifold and i do understand why! im going to get the flange on the dp mani skimmed flush so that will solve the problems about ripping studs out of the head lool

ross that inlet looks amazing!! beeeeen professionally done! bet that cost him a small fortune! yea i do need to speak to andy and see what he can do about boost at different rpm i have a funny feeling it cant control that! i should of really brought omex or someing else but i will have to wait and see what happens to be honest!

[Ross]

ross that inlet looks amazing!! beeeeen professionally done! bet that cost him a small fortune! yea i do need to speak to andy and see what he can do about boost at different rpm i have a funny feeling it cant control that! i should of really brought omex or someing else but i will have to wait and see what happens to be honest!

Omex can't do it either ;) AEM is a good shout though - about the same price as an Omex.

My mate made that himself - he's my engine builder. Very very talented.

[littleblue1]

oh i though it could control that haha, well ill give the pred a go seeing tho ive paid and got it ready under neath my bed lool! if no good ill have to try AEM then :)

[blackie_2k5]

Don't shave it unless it warps

Just put some stress cuts in it, if you shave it then its more likely to warp being thinner

[K567]

The DP plenum isn't very well designed imo - I don't know how much flow work went into it but I suspect not a lot if any. It does flow "better" than the plastic inlet and back to back testing over the vts/gti plastic inlet show good gains - but I don't recall ever seeing back to back testing on the C2 inlet vs the gti inlet mind you...

My friends inlet is one of the best I've ever had the privilege of being close to and is incredibly well designed:

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/841061_591311827564096_2063574725_o.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/841213_591311920897420_202559614_o.jpg

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/860335_591312067564072_277247194_o.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/823455_591312197564059_1780949956_o.jpg

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/858716_591312267564052_1654576792_o.jpg

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/841061_591312117564067_1304952388_o.jpg

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/820641_591312277564051_2140879872_o.jpg


Hmmm yummy.... MC, KH or the infamous WR? 3 classic Audi Engines just taking a guess

[tweeqd]

I cannot see why using a rallye inlet manifold shoul give extra lag ,yes its larger volume ,but if that extra volume causes a problem --then its just showing up the mis match of the turbo to the engine and not an inherrant problem with the manifold.



no what i am saying ,if you read it carefully, is the extra volume in the plenim will make it MORE laggy than with a smaller plenim,as it takes time to fill and I am presuming you used same t/body on both ?




:wall:

[tweeqd]

my DTA S60 with an AEM boost solenoid can do boost by RPM and Boost in gear

[axsaxoman]

and as usual you have missedthe part of the quote which qualifies the statement

no what i am saying ,if you read it carefully, is the extra volume in the plenim will make it MORE laggy than with a smaller plenim,as it takes time to fill and I am presuming you used same t/body on both ?

OR IF the turbo is not a good match to engine size --which most the ones used are not ,


you still have not given me reasons why the rayyle plenim does not work , which tells me you have not tested them back to back well enough and looked for the reason,
ROSS
yes that inlet definately looks the dogs bollocks ,not sure the spreader vents will do anything or will not get partially blcked over time with oil vapour /dust etc and if it will make any difference to power AND GOOD LUCK WITH CLEANING THAT OUT ONCE ITS ALL WELDED TOGETHER ---but yes a wonderful piece of kit to look at
a real "tour de force " in fabrication .
I really don,t think with boost at normal rpms the inlet shape other than possibly the inbuilt trumpets will make much difference to over all performance
.UNLESS IT IS TOO SMALL TO FLOW AIR REQUIREMENT FOR ENGINE

[Ross]

Hmmm yummy.... MC, KH or the infamous WR? 3 classic Audi Engines just taking a guess

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/884376_603451436350135_1987559120_o.jpg

Yum indeed. I think it should be in the region of 800+hp.

[littleblue1]

Rite another question, my manifold is bein made this week, what size primary's should I get? Stick with 38mm or go with 44mm? Or is 44 mm abit of over kill for my little vtr? Advice guys :D

[K567]

match to port size or a little bigger, dont go too far as this will slow exhaust flow