Building Saxo VTS Race Engine

[boylin]

I am purchasing a standard VTS engine and standard ECU & loom.

I am creating a race engine to put in a VTS at a later date.

Just wondering what's to know about building a VTS race engine, like the ECU, cams, head etc. Just after a general bit of info.

This is my thread and i will keep putting pics etc on here of the progress.

[KieranHopkins]

This question is so vague

[AlexB]

Right
What power are you aiming?
That will dictate everything else

[AlexB]

Double

[andyyy]

This question is so vague

After you were just told the same thing on another thread lool , I agree tho be more specific also there is an area for progress thread's

[Ross]

Actually what race series will you be in as THAT will dictate everything else :p

But yeah - what's your power goals/needs for the series you're entering?

[KieranHopkins]

After you were just told the same thing on another thread lool , I agree tho be more specific also there is an area for progress thread's

I asked about stripping methods, I don't see how that is the same as this..

[boylin]

Ok when i start the project, hopefully by the end of the week, i will put the thread in that section.

I'm not too sure what options are available for this engine, never had a saxo before.
I would be looking for a high revving engine without blowing it up, maybe towards the 130+bhp figure.

Just after a fast, high revving engine thats strong enough to handle high revs.

[Ross]

So not a race engine, just a "more powerful engine"?

130bhp from a vts engine is easy. Filter, exhaust, done.

Look in the sticky threads in the engine/performance section - that'll see you looked after for a few hours. Come back when you've digested that :)

[boylin]

So not a race engine, just a "more powerful engine"?

That's why i'm here, looking to see whats available?

[Ross]

As above :)

[greyjasper51]

So erm... Panel filter cams decat and remap... 135bhp... Really is that all??

[jeffchiz]

for 130 bhp there will be no need to rev high as the max bhp will be below the current limiter

a decent manifold, exhasut system and induction mods would see 130bhp

to get around 150bhp this can be done on fast road cams such as catcam 743's or newman ph3's along with a remap fo the oem ecu the limiter will usually be put up to 7800rpm, but this limit is safe with vts head internals

after this is your choice you cna go for some headwork next but i personally would only go to the expense of getting head work done if i was going downt he bodies route again

so a set of throttle bodies can be bolted on, you wont see a great deal amount of bhp but you will achieve more torque and a smoother power curve, you will get around 160bhp

however if you are getting bodies then you might as well use cams that actually need the extra air provided by the bodies such as newman ph5s or the equivilent catcams, these cams will require high comp pistons or your oem pistons machining due to valve clearences, with headwork you could see 190-200bhp for this amount of modification arp conrod bolts and stiffer valve springs and solid lifters will be used for the higher revs

over 200 bhp has been seen with custom cams and some magic headwork, recessing valves etcc

this advise is obviously only for n/a tuning

[boylin]

for 130 bhp there will be no need to rev high as the max bhp will be below the current limiter

a decent manifold, exhasut system and induction mods would see 130bhp

to get around 150bhp this can be done on fast road cams such as catcam 743's or newman ph3's along with a remap fo the oem ecu the limiter will usually be put up to 7800rpm, but this limit is safe with vts head internals

after this is your choice you cna go for some headwork next but i personally would only go to the expense of getting head work done if i was going downt he bodies route again

so a set of throttle bodies can be bolted on, you wont see a great deal amount of bhp but you will achieve more torque and a smoother power curve, you will get around 160bhp

however if you are getting bodies then you might as well use cams that actually need the extra air provided by the bodies such as newman ph5s or the equivilent catcams, these cams will require high comp pistons or your oem pistons machining due to valve clearences, with headwork you could see 190-200bhp for this amount of modification arp conrod bolts and stiffer valve springs and solid lifters will be used for the higher revs

over 200 bhp has been seen with custom cams and some magic headwork, recessing valves etcc

this advise is obviously only for n/a tuning

Woah, awesome information right there. Thanks

What sort of ECU's would be the best for the above setups?

[jeffchiz]

preadator is by far the easiest and cheapest to use cost around £500 and include a free road mapping session, plug and play

only drawbacks is a proper remap on a dyno will always be best so you could still have that expense (cost me £270 to have my vts mapped at northampton motorsport with catcams 708's and throttle bodies with a predator ecu)

also there are limited gargaes that will map a predator, iirc i was the first person to get a preadator mapped at NMS and it took a bit of persuading as they normally use emerald ecus which are recomended by pug1off tuning company, however they were plesently surpsied at how easy it was to map

ecus such as emeralds cost more at the outset just for the unit, also as they are universal a loom needs to be made up or a plug and play looms can be bought but obviosuly at extra cost and then the cost of a remap will usually push the final bill to over a grand just for management

emeralds are accepted at a lto of garages, and there are a lot mroe of them about etc and they ar a brand name, which people pay for, if you just want a cheap ecu that will run your engine then the preadtor is the way to go

[AlexB]

they normally use emerald ecus which are recomended by pug1off tuning company

nms are an omex supplier
pug1off supply emeralds and get nms to map but if you go to nms for an ecu youll likely end up with a 600 series

lots on here use omex ecus
tbh if i was doing a project like this i would go standalone before anything if you plan to improve at a later date

breathing mods and a proper mapped standalone will do you good for 130 easy but its a lot of expense if you dont plan to upgrade later on

[jeffchiz]

ah ok i just assumed, you no what they say about assuming and all that lol

[AlexB]

lol i know man
just thought id say as i got my omex off them
i know a few guys who have

[KamRacing]

What's the car going to be used for?

[welshpug]

how big is your wallet?

[Ross]

how big is your wallet?

Tell me more :rubs hands:

:D

[greyjasper51]

Boost is cheap ;)

[AlexB]

Boost is cheap ;)

boost is cheating :P

[welshpug]

boost wont fit into many race series, and the SB engined 106's at Combe are consistently proving that n-a is often the way to go, showing 500+ bhp turbo cars the way home with only 1600 n-a.

circa £12k will get you a complete SB 1600 race engine package similar to what JP has in his westcoast, roughly 220-230 bhp, it'll be reliable and produce the goods, and be far more drivable than a compromised middle of the road build.

[Ross]

Or you could boost for half the money and have double the power ;)

:trolling:

[greyjasper51]

Or you could boost for half the money and have double the power ;)

:trolling:

Half the money... Ross ive got an idea whats gone into your car...

And for racing n/a is the only way

[Ross]

Half the money... Ross ive got an idea whats gone into your car...

And for racing n/a is the only way

you could build a 400hp engine for £6k easily. ;)

It's the other stuff that adds up that's expensive!

Turbo lag. Giving NA drivers just one extra second of false hope ;)

[luthor1]

We will find out won't we - Stew Summers had a 1.6 Throttle bodied Saxo which lapped his local track, Cadwell Park, in the 1min44 window. Now he has the same chassis but with a 280+bhp Supercharged engine.

He'll either beat that laptime, or he won't! It's that simple :)

That's not even double the power, so he should no way beat it if N/A is best!

[Ross]

I'm teasing of course Andy ;)

Na and its wider spread of usable torque can often be quicker. I bet you Jp can drive his car round castle Combe faster than he could drive mine. All about usable power. :) I respect NA a lot.

[blackie_2k5]

Boost is cheap ;)

boost is cheating :P

Both wrong/gay :hug:

[blackie_2k5]

Also...anyone can drive a slow car fast, that's why we have n/a...takes a real driver to drive a boosted car fast

/trolling

[KamRacing]

boost wont fit into many race series, and the SB engined 106's at Combe are consistently proving that n-a is often the way to go, showing 500+ bhp turbo cars the way home with only 1600 n-a.

circa £12k will get you a complete SB 1600 race engine package similar to what JP has in his westcoast, roughly 220-230 bhp, it'll be reliable and produce the goods, and be far more drivable than a compromised middle of the road build.

I'd be interested in seeing the same car run a good turbo engine though. I'm waiting for Sandy to feel tempted to build one lol. I personally think most people who go turbo think only about bhp rather than chassis, but n/a drivers have to look more at the overall package to get the best from their car. Get a great engine matched with the right chassis mods and you win races..

[welshpug]

There is that indeed, they do have a fair bit of chassis mods but are still very restricted in what they can do, they're essentially still pretty stock in that respect and that must level the playing field a little, but not to such a degree that you imagine.

Yes lots of torque is good, from an-a view, but when you talk boost it creates massive traction and drivetrain issues.

[Ross]

There is that indeed, they do have a fair bit of chassis mods but are still very restricted in what they can do, they're essentially still pretty stock in that respect and that must level the playing field a little, but not to such a degree that you imagine.

Yes lots of torque is good, from an-a view, but when you talk boost it creates massive traction and drivetrain issues.

Not entirely accurate to be fair... Supercharged and 200bhp would be a lot cheaper than 200bhp NA, and would drive like an NA - with no additional stress on drivetrain or traction issues imo.

[welshpug]

The torque is higher, therefore there will be higher transmission stresses, quite a few of these circuit cars are over 200 easily and still run MA boxes! and they aren't short of torque, they're over 150 lbft.


Boost adds weight too, set of bodies is much lighter ;)

[Ross]

The torque is higher, therefore there will be higher transmission stresses, quite a few of these circuit cars are over 200 easily and still run MA boxes! and they aren't short of torque, they're over 150 lbft.


Boost adds weight too, set of bodies is much lighter ;)

lol now you ARE clutching at straws! :D

[SeniorGT]

preadator is by far the easiest and cheapest to use cost around £500 and include a free road mapping session, plug and play

Going backwards a bit on thread topic...
Never really had a proper look at a Predator, but arent they just DTA s40's modified for plug and play??

[SeniorGT]

^^^ after reading that back its sounds a bit wrong, meant to sound more like ...

i'm going a bit back wards on thread topic but.....

[welshpug]

no, its a glorified megasquirt.

you can however get an S40 housed inside a standard casing that'll mate up to an original loom if you so wished, martin at MEF motorsport can do that.

[boylin]

This thread has progressed since i started it.

Anyway, i purchased the VTS engine and collected it just. I need a VTS manifold now so i can fire it up and hear it running.

Came with the ECU and wiring loom, starter motor and inlet manifold/injectors.
So should be ready to start when i get the exhaust manifold.

[SeniorGT]

no, its a glorified megasquirt.

you can however get an S40 housed inside a standard casing that'll mate up to an original loom if you so wished, martin at MEF motorsport can do that.

Ah right, just wondered.

[dannygti]

Some well trained 'ball cuppers' in this thread..

If your going into a race series then NA is going to be a much easier route. If your going to make your car as fast as possible for a certain budget the Boost is the way forward. My opinion of course..

It's comical how people compare apples and pear's and think they have a valid point.

There aren't so many well thought out boosted engines out there as its very easy to make the car go quite quick with even a chucked together setup, but if a proper setup was built then it would make for a ballistic circuit car.

[adamskiTNR]

Quite. Well designed, implemented, and most importantly controlled, pressure charged engines in the tuning scene are rare. You take a look at any works touring car or lmp and you can see how smooth and drivable charged engines can be. They are more efficient engines, and as long as the torque is delivered in a controlled manner they are better.

[sexy_gt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXPOjPMqF3E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Supercharged saxo.

[axsaxoman]

Quite. Well designed, implemented, and most importantly controlled, pressure charged engines in the tuning scene are rare. You take a look at any works touring car or lmp and you can see how smooth and drivable charged engines can be. They are more efficient engines, and as long as the torque is delivered in a controlled manner they are better.

I agree a controllable boosted engine should always have a wider spread of usable power than a n n/a of even greater power
watch this s/c alfa 380 bhp against the four wheel drive scoobie with supposedly 500+

AHM ALFA 33 CADWELL 2012 CLASSIC THUNDER RACE - YouTube

now see what happens once he gets past his lap times just keep dropping

drives just like an n/a no lag of any kind its just instant power

[KamRacing]

n/a 106 would have beaten it lol

[boylin]

Couple of questions about the engine i have.

Not going to lie, i know a bit about engines but the reason i have this engine is to learn more. So here's my questions;

1. To start the engine as it is (outside the car), do i need a fuel pump to give the fuel rail pressure?

2. With the standard ECU i have, is it just connect plugs, connect a battery and fire up the starter motor, or will i have to bodge something as there's no ignition barrel?

3. Also whats this big pipe coming off in the picture below, as i dont have the car, i can't cross reference where it conncet to, don't want oil spraying everywhere.

[boylin]

Here's a few pics of the block


http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2737_zpsf3e9fafe.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2737_zpsf3e9fafe.jpg.html)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2738_zps44f17264.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2738_zps44f17264.jpg.html)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2739_zpsa43fd66d.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2739_zpsa43fd66d.jpg.html)

[boylin]

Anyone have any ideas?

Not going to lie, i know a bit about engines but the reason i have this engine is to learn more. So here's my questions;

1. To start the engine as it is (outside the car), do i need a fuel pump to give the fuel rail pressure?

2. With the standard ECU i have, is it just connect plugs, connect a battery and fire up the starter motor, or will i have to bodge something as there's no ignition barrel?

3. Also whats this big pipe coming off in the picture below, as i dont have the car, i can't cross reference where it conncet to, don't want oil spraying everywhere.

[axsaxoman]

too many things to connect to be practical to run engine as you show it out of car .
it would be quicker to just fit it in a car than make all the required connections out of car

[boylin]

too many things to connect to be practical to run engine as you show it out of car .
it would be quicker to just fit it in a car than make all the required connections out of car

i dont have the car, i dont have the room yet for the car, will have in a couple of months but for now i wanted to concentrate on the engine.

My understanding is that i need a fuel pump to pressure the fuel rail, somehow activate the ignition on the engine loom, connect the engine loom and ecu to the engine, connect a starter motor to a battery and it should be good?

[axsaxoman]

I don,t see what its going to prove --you cannot run it for more than a few seconds with no water cooling and without a g/box how you going to mount a starter ?

[boylin]

I don,t see what its going to prove --you cannot run it for more than a few seconds with no water cooling and without a g/box how you going to mount a starter ?

Guess i wont be starting it then, ah well, can just rebuild it ready for the car in a couple of months.

[jasonmayall]

Wouldnt it need to be strapped down aswell? I'm sure if you start it up without any engine mounts, you're going to ruin it?

[boylin]

I've got a big engine stand frame thing that will support it.

[AlexFocusST]

Why would you want to test fire it if you are going to rebuild the whole engine?
Just turn it over a few times to make sure that it actually turns and has compression and then start taking it apart .

Don't take this the wrong way but are you sure what you are getting yourself into ? Meaning you are intending to rebuild an engine but you dont know how it actually comes alive ( starter motor)

[luthor1]

do you fully understand what 'line bored' means and how it relates to engine building? If not, then don't touch it!

[jpsaxo]

I'm teasing of course Andy ;)

Na and its wider spread of usable torque can often be quicker. I bet you Jp can drive his car round castle Combe faster than he could drive mine. All about usable power. :) I respect NA a lot.

I think you've respected it more since Trax last year ;) lol

[boylin]

do you fully understand what 'line bored' means and how it relates to engine building? If not, then don't touch it!

Yeah i understand line boring, but i wont be doing any of that.
Although, i am an engineer.

[jasonmayall]

Yeah i understand line boring, but i wont be doing any of that.
Although, i am an engineer.

Everyone's an engineer these days.
The bloke who come to fix our sky was an 'engineer'...
All he had to was plug a box in.

[boylin]

Everyone's an engineer these days.
The bloke who come to fix our sky was an 'engineer'...
All he had to was plug a box in.

There's a mechanic, technician, field engineer, technical engineer, computer engineer and a mechanical engineer.
I happen to be a mechanical engineer and a technician.

[greyjasper51]

There's a mechanic, technician, field engineer, technical engineer, computer engineer and a mechanical engineer.
I happen to be a mechanical engineer and a technician.

Your telling us this but you have zero idea of how an internal combustion engine works... If your a proper engineer and havent seen something before you could have a calculated guess... Do you need the fuel PUMP working to run the engine... Engine needs fuel PUMPED into it to work... So even with a zero knowledge of it but some commin sense you surely could work it out...

[K567]

Yeah i understand line boring, but i wont be doing any of that.
Although, i am an engineer.

Sorry but I'm calling bollocks on that

Fact I'm calling bollocks on all of it....

[blackie_2k5]

Unless a very early apprentice

[boylin]

Your telling us this but you have zero idea of how an internal combustion engine works... If your a proper engineer and havent seen something before you could have a calculated guess... Do you need the fuel PUMP working to run the engine... Engine needs fuel PUMPED into it to work... So even with a zero knowledge of it but some commin sense you surely could work it out...

The way the fuel is pumped into the engine is via injectors.

I didn't know if there was a seperate pump somewhere that pressurises the injector rail.

Does the fuel pump run continously, or is it controlled from the ECU?

[wadoryu]

The way the fuel is pumped into the engine is via injectors.

I didn't know if there was a seperate pump somewhere that pressurises the injector rail.

Does the fuel pump run continously, or is it controlled from the ECU?

The fuel is delivered through the injectors not pumped, the pump delivers fuel to the rail, which is controlled via a fuel pressure regulator. Then the ecu tells the injectors when to open to deliver fuel into the engine. Like every signal fuel injection car ever made? As far as I'm aware.

[luthor1]

Wow, this HAS to be a joke :)

/checks calendar for April 1st...

[jasonmayall]

There's a mechanic, technician, field engineer, technical engineer, computer engineer and a mechanical engineer.
I happen to be a mechanical engineer and a technician.

I dont mean any offence by this.

But you're a mechanical engineer, and a technician.

You're usually one, or the other... I find it very difficult to believe that you're both, I know a few proper engineers who are that busy, they dont have time to eat, let alone find time to be a techy aswell.

The fact you dont know how fuel is delivered into an engine proves you've no idea what an engineer is, its a mindset you need to have and you dont have that. Sorry dude.

[boylin]

I'm echanical engineer and a computer technician, running two businesses.
Yes i know the difference between arc, mig and tig welding, and can do all of them, i know the difference between imperial and metric measurements, i can build and design pretty much anything from a technical drawing.
Doesn't mean i have to automatically know everything about engines. Hence the reason i'm on this forum and not just doing it all already.

I have never messed with an engine before and yet i've figured the injectors need high pressure through a fuel rail. Air is delivered through the inlet manifold and mixed with injected fuel, and i understand the internal combustion engine. It's just all this electronic stuff i need to get my head around.

[jasonmayall]

Mechanical engineer and a computer technician, running two businesses. Doesn't mean i have to automatically know everything about engines. Hence the reason i'm on this forum and not just doing it all already.

So you're a mechanic, and a computer technician.

If you're an engineer, you would already know what you're doing.

[welshpug]

naah, engineers are not mechanics, they don't know how to use a spanner.

[Ross]

Can we try and be a little more constructive to the OP please guys?

Thanking you :)

[boylin]

yeah, feel like i'm getting bullied here, paid for a membership aswell.

Came here for help, asked the questions i'm stuck on but got abuse.

Anyway, here's to days progress:

Stripped the head and removed the head from the block. Removed sump, time for a polish & port.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2744_zps653c3a48.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2744_zps653c3a48.jpg.html)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2745_zps67f83567.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2745_zps67f83567.jpg.html)

[greyjasper51]

naah, engineers are not mechanics, they don't know how to use a spanner.

erm i find that abit sterotypical... and possibly slightly offensive...


OP you do know what has to be replaced and not replaced and carbon build up in the bores... pm me if you have problems or questions..

[yr51ocw]

erm i find that abit sterotypical

I would agree! I am an engineer (performance and combustion engineer), but I am not a stranger to working the tools, nor are most of the people I work with. However we do have a team of technicians who are their to do it on our behalf.

[yr51ocw]

to the OP - your obviously not that up to speed with engines (no offence), but hats off to you for jumping in at the deep end and giving it a go, there is no better/quicker way to learn!

[jasonmayall]

Boylin, I want to apologise.
I was a bit rude to you, no offence intended... Just having a bad day, shouldn't have taken it out on you!

[e8_pqck]

I know plenty of engineers who don't know anything about engines. But they are working designing oil field equipment etc.

However, i do find your claims a little bit bizarre.

Engineers are designing using maths, calculating stresses using FEA and optimising designs. If you have never learnt how to design from first principals or know how to do it (9 times out of 10 you learn this at uni) then you are not an engineer.

Plenty of shop floor techs or fitters are good craft engineers or are often called mechanical engineers, but they aren't engineers in the pure sense - as someone said, that terms is used very loosely these days. I'd put my cash on him being some kind of shop floor hands on engineer which you could realistically term as a fitter - again, i know plenty who don't know anything about engines but they are very good fitters.

Good luck with the project OP - open a new thread in the project sectrion and plenty of people will help you along the way.

[e8_pqck]

I would agree! I am an engineer (performance and combustion engineer), but I am not a stranger to working the tools, nor are most of the people I work with. However we do have a team of technicians who are their to do it on our behalf.

Plenty of people come out of uni without knowing how to use a micrometer though! In fact, some don't even know what one looks like!

[adamskiTNR]

Very true. As i mentioned in my FSAE design thread in the motorsport section, i couldn't imagine designing components without having knowledge on how the tools will interact with them

[greyjasper51]

I dont really know what to say to all this... I was a tech before i did my degree and got an engineers job... My trade is actually a race mechanic thats what i was trained at todo things on the tools fast and right first time... Then did the degree and now im in research and development at ford motor company... We do all the power train development for europe and certain bits that america send to us... Ive been there in the pissing rain, snow, sleet laying under a dripping wet smashed up car trying to get it out for the next heat... I still do it as like a sideline to my normal job... I do get mocked at work by post grads who (no offence to anyone here) think their shit dont stink because there very good academically where as im more practically based... But the men are sorted out from the idiots when we do live testing in the field and im getting stuck in there with the techs helping cus weve shat a gearbox and there stood there like total plebs running round like trying to find a 3/8 drive 8mm allen key with a short extension 1/2inch to 3/8 adapter and the nut gun to get the gearbox off with... Also they winge when i lift a gearbox in from the bottom leaning over the wing because its "not like that in the service manual" it really is offensive to me people that call themselves engineers because they have a job title engineer but have no clue how the shit really works.....

[Gabbastard]

You know how if women spend too long together, they synchronise their periods?

Thats what this place is like, fuck sake.

[solvi]

so i fix boiler for living...know alot abaut conbustion...

but still have not a clue on engine rebuild .....or forums

the turbo vs n/a is no comparable ...respect turbo drivers but think the n/a saxos are more fun to drive....

ps:should i pay the membership????

[greyjasper51]

The premium member articles are well worth the membership cost... The info is really good :)

[solvi]

The premium member articles are well worth the membership cost... The info is really good :)

done!!!premium payed!!

[greyjasper51]

done!!!premium payed!!

£10 quid iirc for a year... Its nothing really for what you get!!

[boylin]

I can't post in the Track Prep section, wont let me.
So a quick question, whats best to replace while working on the bottom end.

Got a sump gasket, couple oil seals, conrod race bearings on order.

[boylin]

Latest progress, complete engine stripped and going to the strippers tomorrow to dip everything. It is horrible inside the block.

Will get some pics when its all clean.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2783_zps5536c6af.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2783_zps5536c6af.jpg.html)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2784_zpsb57bf252.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2784_zpsb57bf252.jpg.html)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2785_zps7297d92f.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2785_zps7297d92f.jpg.html)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2791_zps4f47a16c.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2791_zps4f47a16c.jpg.html)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2791_zps4f47a16c.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2791_zps4f47a16c.jpg.html)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/boylin/ebay/IMG_2793_zps00c24055.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/boylin/media/ebay/IMG_2793_zps00c24055.jpg.html)

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