turbo kit

[James93]

Hi guys

Right been offered a turbo kit from a fella at work for a stupidly cheap price, it's for an 8v he said the manifold is a mess but the 16v uses a different manifold so would have to change that anyway,now I haven't done a great deal of research on this topic as I wasn't going to do it was going to go ITB route but now I've been offered it at such a cheap price I can't refuse im going to go for it, could someone please list the parts needed for a low boost turbo setup so I can make sure everything is there and it's not one of them jump the gun scenarios, thankyou, oh and is a 8v kit the same as a 16v kit albeit the manifold?

[iSlayeR]

Turbo
Manifold
downpipe
Oil feed
Oil return/sump
intercooler
bigger injectors
water cooling pipes/t pieces if turbo needs it
boost pipes
uprated clutch
standalone ecu
4 bar fpr

think that's about it :)

[AXracing]

2 / 3 bar map sensor too.

Extra cooling is preferable as well.

Low comp pistons or thicker head gaskets depending on boost level.

Uprated engine mounts if your planning on running lots of boost or driving like a loon.

LSD again if your planning to drive like a Loon or run lots of boost.

You may have to use a remote oil filter depending on what other parts you plan to use.

[stevo67]

Could I just add 1 thing?Uprated brakes as knowone has mentioned it lol.

[James93]

Got uprated brakes already, 266 setup but will go bigger, guy said it has the 5th injector and he tried to explain a "switch looking thing" which I recon has to be mf2 or sigcon? I have no idea what these are as im yet to read up on it all but seen them in various turbo posts, anyone in a nutshell explain what they do? I know I could search but easier to keep it all in one post for reference, and learn before just slapping it all on, cars basically track ready just need more power now, handling braking etc is all sorted, all I need now is more power, clueless on boost as never owned a boosted car just n/a but have the urge to do it now and need to learn somewhere! Thanks :)

[James93]

Im not too sure on the turbo size but it is small and low boost, don't want too high boost to start with cause I'll go higher boost when I get a forged engine or forge my own, is low comp Pistons/thicker head gasket a necessity for low boost?

[AXracing]

guy said it has the 5th injector and he tried to explain a "switch looking thing" which I recon has to be mf2 or sigcon?


Hmm it may be a mf2 but as soon as you say switch it rings alarm bells. This is what a MF2 and Sigcon should look like http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sexy_gt/media/saxo%20spares%20sales/2011-12-18130750800x600.jpg.html. But as soon as you say switch that sounds like the dreaded turbo doctor. He was scamming loads of people out of money on several forums. He was selling old scrappy turbos literally welding them to a stock manifold most of the time even at the wrong orientation. Then to add fuel he literally using a pressure switch off a washing machine or similar to turn a injector on. It was all in all less then a hundred pounds of scrap that for the most part was killing cars. The used to be a huge tread on SSC warning about this guy and listing tones of his aliases.

[James93]

Well that sounds like a load of good haha, thanks for the mf2 photo though, probably the best thing is to get pictures of the setup from the fella and post on here, is the purpose of the mf2/sigcon to basically activate the 5th injector when on boost? Haven't had chance to read up on it all yet

[iSlayeR]

I've heard a lot of people have problems with the 5th injector setup, better getting 4 uprated injectors with standalone, and I'd recommend a thicker head gasket I run a 1.9mm h/g with standard internals on 8 psi which I would say is low boost :y:

[sulgravesax]

Islayer what figures are you getting on 8psi?

[AXracing]

is the purpose of the mf2/sigcon to basically activate the 5th injector when on boost?

The MF2 is basically a extra ECU to run the 5th injector. What the MF2 does is use a MAP sensor to see how much real world boost the engine is achieving and then uses the engine RPM feed to see how fast the engine is running. It combines this information with a map you have set to add just enough extra fuel by controlling the flow of the extra injector/injectors you have added.

The Sigcon ( version 2 or 3 ) can do a few nifty things. But the most important thing for turbo applications is that at a given boost level it can make the standard ECU ignore the lambda sensor. This is very useful as the standard ECU will try and remove any extra fuel you add with a 5th injector. So if your running enough boost that you have to run the engine rich the Sigcon (2 or 3) will stop the stock ECU messing up your fuelling and blowing your engine apart. The original Sigcon could not do this, only the 2nd and 3rd revisions.

[stevo1600]

I ran this on my vtr turbo mf2/sigcon.

nightmare to wire in and didnt work entirely that well. for the money i paid a few hundred quid more i could have had a predator ecu.

Go with the predator ecu pal if your planning on doing a conversion. and personally id start building my own turbo kit, unless a good kit for a good price becomes available either off here, or ebay. but have some one who knows what a good kit is look into it before you buy it.

[axsaxoman]

The MF2 is basically a extra ECU to run the 5th injector. What the MF2 does is use a MAP sensor to see how much real world boost the engine is achieving and then uses the engine RPM feed to see how fast the engine is running. It combines this information with a map you have set to add just enough extra fuel by controlling the flow of the extra injector/injectors you have added.

The Sigcon ( version 2 or 3 ) can do a few nifty things. But the most important thing for turbo applications is that at a given boost level it can make the standard ECU ignore the lambda sensor. This is very useful as the standard ECU will try and remove any extra fuel you add with a 5th injector. So if your running enough boost that you have to run the engine rich the Sigcon (2 or 3) will stop the stock ECU messing up your fuelling and blowing your engine apart. The original Sigcon could not do this, only the 2nd and 3rd revisions.

as the designer and maker of the sig con i can tell you that does not work as this man says
It was only ever meant to be used with low boost and its main purpose was to rescale std map sensor + tps etc so std ecu would work correctly . off boost std ecu works as it did before fitting boost .
It could do other things as well ,but it could never control lambda as decscrbed
worked fine ,but with the advent of cheaper ecu,s then by the time youhad made up a fifth injector holder +plumbing etc it was simpler and cheaper to just fit larger injectors and ecu of choice .
If all yuo ever going to do is run 7-8 psi ,then its still cheapest way and will work perfectly when set up correctly -but once you start wanting to do more --then itwas a bad choice
there are otherunits which can do more than the sig con out now
AEM fic controller --which can do what he is saying +more
lots of choices theses days

[James93]

Okay thanks, well I'm not wanting to run high boost, maybe one day but low boost is fine as I used the car on track and want it to still be driveable instead of lighting the tyres up every time it comes into boost, this kit ive been offered has everything, turbo, manifold, front mount, all the boost pipes, oil cooler etc etc he said its ready to go and wants 300 quid for the lot, now the "switch" does sound quite worrying, is there a way round that? Or would it be a case of predator ECU or the likes?

[iSlayeR]

Islayer what figures are you getting on 8psi?

160bhp :) that's on a mk2 vtr :y: wanting to get a electronic boost controller and turn it up to 10 psi ;) it's bloody quick for what it is though

[James93]

I'm not fussed about running high boost to start, like 6 or 8psi to start with on standard internals clutch etc, clutch is only about 3 months old if that so should be okay? Gearbox is a VTR box as that's all I could get at the time, so the 5th injector, is that a no no, or Isit worth doing?

[iSlayeR]

I'm not fussed about running high boost to start, like 6 or 8psi to start with on standard internals clutch etc, clutch is only about 3 months old if that so should be okay? Gearbox is a VTR box as that's all I could get at the time, so the 5th injector, is that a no no, or Isit worth doing?


Clutch is essential, you'll ruin your standard clutch in no time and will get nothing but slip, and imo i'd sell on the 5th injector setup to go towards uprated injectors and standalone :y:

[James93]

Clutch is essential, you'll ruin your standard clutch in no time and will get nothing but slip, and imo i'd sell on the 5th injector setup to go towards uprated injectors and standalone :y:

Oh really? Is it essential on low boost then? I understand at high boost but didn't know about low, what sort of clutch do I want to be running

[iSlayeR]

Oh really? Is it essential on low boost then? I understand at high boost but didn't know about low, what sort of clutch do I want to be running

Yep, I run a 5 paddle cg motorsport clutch and it's doing well, even on low boost there's a massive increase in torque being put through everything

[AXracing]

as the designer and maker of the sig con i can tell you that does not work as this man says
It was only ever meant to be used with low boost and its main purpose was to rescale std map sensor + tps etc so std ecu would work correctly . off boost std ecu works as it did before fitting boost .
It could do other things as well ,but it could never control lambda as decscrbed


Little confused now, Can I ask why you say that John? Does not the Sigcon 2 and 3 when required send a wide open throttle signal to the standard ECU making the stock ECU think you are running the car at full throttle. The stock ECU reacts by ignoring lambda correction. In so allowing you to add extra fuel and run rich on boost with out the standard ECU leaning out the injectors its controlling. Hence your Sigcon directly effects how the standard ECU reacts to lambda data. I am not really seeing what part I have messed up on this one?

[James93]

Yep, I run a 5 paddle cg motorsport clutch and it's doing well, even on low boost there's a massive increase in torque being put through everything

That's a pain, haven't had much luck with gearboxes and clutches in the past year! First clutch went bang, then replaced it a week later for the diff bearing to go bang wiping out a week old clutch and the problems kept coming, every box I bought had countless problems I think im on clutch number 4 now and gearbox number 4 or 5 in the last year! CG Motorsport one does look reasonable, what's it like to drive? Stiff pedal? Is it difficult in traffic or have tendency to either be on or off with no real bite? I wouldn't mind going for a decent clutch, will keeps eye out for a new box with a LSD and if I find one will fit paddle clutch at same time for sakes, as im either going boost or ITB, seems boost is a hell of a lot of drama!

[iSlayeR]

That's a pain, haven't had much luck with gearboxes and clutches in the past year! First clutch went bang, then replaced it a week later for the diff bearing to go bang wiping out a week old clutch and the problems kept coming, every box I bought had countless problems I think im on clutch number 4 now and gearbox number 4 or 5 in the last year! CG Motorsport one does look reasonable, what's it like to drive? Stiff pedal? Is it difficult in traffic or have tendency to either be on or off with no real bite? I wouldn't mind going for a decent clutch, will keeps eye out for a new box with a LSD and if I find one will fit paddle clutch at same time for sakes, as im either going boost or ITB, seems boost is a hell of a lot of drama!


It's actually not too bad not as stiff as the helix 4 paddle one, only trouble I have now is I think my gearbox is on the way out, I get a howling sound on the overrun, but being honest boost is 100% worth it, I've never been in a throttle bodied saxo, but even though mines only 160hp, I'm smiling every second :drink: the sound of it spooling followed by the dump valve/waste gate chatter makes me wet in the trouser department every time :oops:

[James93]

Would a clutch upgrade be required on ITBs?? Like jenveys for example

[iSlayeR]

Would a clutch upgrade be required on ITBs?? Like jenveys for example

I suppose it depends what sort of power/torque you'll achieve? And how your going to be driving it? But for peace of mind I'd get an uprated clutch, better off doing things right first time, trust me :y: last thing you want is finishing your project drive it down the road only to realise your getting clutch slip, then having to rip the box off :n:

[James93]

I'm all honesty if I was going to run ITBs I would use Newmans PH3, probably a predator ECU or something like that, ITBs im not too sure ideally jenveys but I don't know anything really just for the noise! I will change to a paddle clutch next time the box needs whipping off just don't fancy doing it just to change the clutch then the gearbox going, rather do it when the box needs to be changed, ive had nothing by VTR boxes on this car since I've had it, so don't know what a GTI box feels like apparently I'm missing out so next time it needs replacing I'll go for GTI or Rallye box, I do drive it hard at times, usually poodle around unless I'm on track or out on the weekend, but when on track it does get driven hard, currently spec is basically standard under the bonnet, but 4-2-1 manifold, Saxsport exhaust, omex limiter, Powerflex lower engine mount, GroupN linkages, basically ive spent about 4k on the car inside outside handling etc but engine is the next step now, really unsure whether to go boost or itb, boost seems like alot of aggro where itb seems alot easier more of bolt on the ITBs and a map and off you go?

[iSlayeR]

I'm all honesty if I was going to run ITBs I would use Newmans PH3, probably a predator ECU or something like that, ITBs im not too sure ideally jenveys but I don't know anything really just for the noise! I will change to a paddle clutch next time the box needs whipping off just don't fancy doing it just to change the clutch then the gearbox going, rather do it when the box needs to be changed, ive had nothing by VTR boxes on this car since I've had it, so don't know what a GTI box feels like apparently I'm missing out so next time it needs replacing I'll go for GTI or Rallye box, I do drive it hard at times, usually poodle around unless I'm on track or out on the weekend, but when on track it does get driven hard, currently spec is basically standard under the bonnet, but 4-2-1 manifold, Saxsport exhaust, omex limiter, Powerflex lower engine mount, GroupN linkages, basically ive spent about 4k on the car inside outside handling etc but engine is the next step now, really unsure whether to go boost or itb, boost seems like alot of aggro where itb seems alot easier more of bolt on the ITBs and a map and off you go?



Vts/Gti boxes have stronger diffs :y: i'll always favour a boosted car over a N/A car, it's not that much different, just need to "bolt" on a few more things and get it mapped :y:

[James93]

What opposed to VTR ones? I thought they used the same diff! That's interesting probabl why I go through so many gearboxes! Haha, well I'm so unsure what I want to do, only thing with boost need to run a lot more like oil feed from sump etc etc etc plus an ecu to run it, ive never looked into boost really before but from what people are saying it does seem like a hell of a lot of work??

[iSlayeR]

What opposed to VTR ones? I thought they used the same diff! That's interesting probabl why I go through so many gearboxes! Haha, well I'm so unsure what I want to do, only thing with boost need to run a lot more like oil feed from sump etc etc etc plus an ecu to run it, ive never looked into boost really before but from what people are saying it does seem like a hell of a lot of work??

Well speaking from experience, I bought my manifold/turbo/downpipe/engine/oil feed/return/ boost pipes/water feed pipes, all as one package, which made it a lot easier :y: only fuck abouts I had to do was relocate the PAS, didn't have to change the pipes or anything :y: and put the battery in the boot, apart from that, it was easy as pie as long as you know your way around saxos :y:

[Nimix]

Well speaking from experience, I bought my manifold/turbo/downpipe/engine/oil feed/return/ boost pipes/water feed pipes, all as one package, which made it a lot easier :y: only fuck abouts I had to do was relocate the PAS, didn't have to change the pipes or anything :y: and put the battery in the boot, apart from that, it was easy as pie as long as you know your way around saxos :y:
Can you find a link to that set? :)
How much did you use all in all?

[iSlayeR]

Can you find a link to that set? :)
How much did you use all in all?

I bought it second hand off a member on here :) cost about £1500 for everything including mapping

[Nimix]

Really nice :)
Better keep looking then

[James93]

What ive been offered is everything, turbo, manifold, downpipe, 5th injector, oil feeds, dump valve, boost pipes, front mount the whole kit for 300 quid, only thing I'd need to buy is a 16v turbo manifold as its for a 8v and maybe 4 clio injectors and a ecu and map :)

[iSlayeR]

What ive been offered is everything, turbo, manifold, downpipe, 5th injector, oil feeds, dump valve, boost pipes, front mount the whole kit for 300 quid, only thing I'd need to buy is a 16v turbo manifold as its for a 8v and maybe 4 clio injectors and a ecu and map :)

go for it :y: And get a progress thread up :drink:

[James93]

I do need to get one up, from buying it standard to how it is now

[iSlayeR]

I do need to get one up, from buying it standard to how it is now

It's nice to see where your car starts and what you actually finish with :y:

[axsaxoman]

Little confused now, Can I ask why you say that John? Does not the Sigcon 2 and 3 when required send a wide open throttle signal to the standard ECU making the stock ECU think you are running the car at full throttle. The stock ECU reacts by ignoring lambda correction. In so allowing you to add extra fuel and run rich on boost with out the standard ECU leaning out the injectors its controlling. Hence your Sigcon directly effects how the standard ECU reacts to lambda data. I am not really seeing what part I have messed up on this one?

ok
when adjusted it will make the full throttle ,as far as ecu is concerned, happen when you want it too --that will make the lambda go open loop --which means you will be running on the base map as supplied by ecu
-- thats not the same as being able to later lambda values across the map - it then means what ever extra fuel you add will not be pulled out by lambda .
on single plug ecu that works ok ,but on 3 plug ecu which will run in full lambda control up to 90% throttle angle that will not work well as you will be on boost at much lower throttle angles than 90% + .
it also allows you to rescale the mf2 map sensor for better fuel defination and you do not end up with the std map maxing out so only giving you added fuel with rpm and not relative to bosst rising .
yes if set up correctly sig con +mf2 can cope with more boost than 7 psi .but you will never get any timing retard + of course when you go back below boost ecu goes back to std settings so you keep economy
the aem FIC controller can rescale the lambda values+ alter timing so you can keep exact fuelling you require anywhere on the map not matter the throttle angle. It is a more avanced unit -was not available when i designed sig con unit ,but you need laptop etc to set up the AEM fic controller.
what ever way best to fit a w/b lambda and gauge then you can see exactly what is gong on
just didn,t want people to think it could do that ,as that was how i would have read your post

[Duffy Xsi]

What's the cheapest budget way to control fueling an timing on a turbo setup. I know I'll get slated for asking this and get told oh go standalone. But I'm not going standalone as of yet. Something tht can cope with about .5 bar -.8. Running on a decomp plate with 2 gaskets totalling 2.4mm. Megane r26 injectors and t25 turbo.


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[jbrady72]

You mad bro


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[axsaxoman]

0,5 bar --no need to lower comp ratio --just get fuelling correct
that will give you at least 50% increase in power
going further and yes you need ot think about other things
so it will all come down to budget
AEM fic controller can do what you want --but for a little more you could fit ap redator ecu --which will be a direct swop for std ecu --no wiring .
-as for fitting decomp =2 gaskets --thats not the way apart from being expensive and of boost performance will be poor
most std turbo cars from factory run 10-1 comp ratio and when you fit a chip and raise the boost you dont, lower the comp
yuo do realsie that you will need a much better clutch as well
start adding the costs up

[James93]

Here is said turbo kit, turbo is a Garrett GT15, no play or anything in the turbo, the manifold is an 8v one though and has a triangle flange so got no idea if I will need to change the turbo cause never seen a triangle flange on a manifold before, with a GT15 its low boost would I need thicker head gasket or decomp plate and a uprated clutch?


Bare with me need to get on laptop to upload photos

[James93]

Photos of said kit, Has got 6 injectors, not 5! Two extras, on a switch.... is there anything i can do with this kit and is it worth 300 quid?

http://i59.tinypic.com/2f0dr20.jpg

Turbo Garrett GT15 on 8v Manifold, obviously ill need a 16v Manifold, but its a triangle flange, will i need to make a manifold out of a standard 16v one? or can i get a triangle flanged turbo mani?

http://i58.tinypic.com/33pezpd.jpg

The 5th and 6th Injector

http://i60.tinypic.com/160sbiu.jpg

Sump with return, boost pipes, downpipe with lambda, dump valve and the switch he was talking about for the injectors, its an actual rocker switch which seems dodgy as f. Is there a way i can get rid of this and do it properly, i am on a budget i know predator ecu is the right way, but price of predator map injectors etc will be all adding up
when i could just get bodies and be done with it, is this the job of the MF2/Sigcon instead of switch?

http://i57.tinypic.com/1scxo2.jpg

Plate on the turbo.

Any use? or is it worth a swerve or buy and sell on?

[iSlayeR]

being honest, not worth 300 quid mate, the only things you can use with that kit is the turbo and sump and dump valve really, in comparison this is what I got for 400:

gt17 turbo
Miltek manifold
Downpipe
complete engine
Bigger injectors
Modified sump
Oil feed
Oil return
Intercooler
All boost pipes
coolant pipes/t pieces for turbo

[James93]

God knows why sone random chick and fella got uploaded instead of the turbo! Have two front mounts with it aswell, all the boost pipes are there, really not worth 300 quid? That's a suprise the whole lot is there really, cause was thinking of buying it and selling it on or swapping for a set of bodies for someone who wants boost

[Codey_H]

Can I ask one question regarding turbocharging. If I was to turbocharge my car which I use for ever day use does it still need a cat on the manifold

[axsaxoman]

you need a cat for MOT --willnot pass without one fitted

[Codey_H]

I making up my own manifold for my turbo, where should i put the car before or after turbo also what cat should i use?

[jbrady72]

I making up my own manifold for my turbo, where should i put the car before or after turbo also what cat should i use?


Before the turbo. Definitely.


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[Codey_H]

awesome ok, and after market cat or cut a stock?

[axsaxoman]

by vhoice a slightly lareger one than std, as you will be making 50% more powr ,so one from a bigger car --or a sports cat
but a proper sports cat should be £300 -- so as ou trying to do it cheap one from a 2litre + std car