Engine Won't Start

[Phaeton]

After some ideas before I start to pull the engine apart, I was at Cadwell Park yesterday going down Park Straight around 95mph when lost all power just as though somebody had switched ignition off.

Got the car towed back to the pit area & started to look, the alternator belt had snapped & cut through the water pipe. The engine still turns over, there is still fuel being pumped, there is a spark at each plug, so I'm thinking that rules out immobiliser issues, correct?

Went to remove the plugs & the tubes were full of oil, took a plugs out & when you spin the engine over you can't feel any pressure if you block the top of the tube with you finger as though there is no compression. Is there something else anyone can suggest before I take head off?

[Gandi699]

if the plugs are out you wont feel any compression when turning it over (minus your finger trick obviously). Sounds to me like the alt belt snapping has knocked the timing out perhaps? I'd be checking that before pulling the head but looks like thats what it might boil down to

[Phaeton]

I've pulled the cam cover off & found what looks like part of the alternator belt in there, I'm not familiar with Saxo's normally have Toyota's so I've turned the crank until the inlet & exhaust cams are lined up with the holes in the head, but I can't find any markings on the crank pulley or the block to line up. Am I missing something? this is the way you usually do it on a Toyota.

[vincent1]

if part of the alternator belt is in there, yes its probaly knocked the timming out i think there is a hole by the starter motor you put a timing pin in to align the crank what engine is in this?

[vincent1]

just found this guide it may help you ignore my post above about the hole being by the starter was thinking a diffrent block
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65315&highlight=cambelt+timing

[Phaeton]

Yes, sorry just realised I hadn't put it was a 16V VTS lump sorry about that, removed the alternator pulley have now found a mark on the timing belt pulley which when No1 is at TDC is facing directly down. But the top pulley's are now way off, so it does look like something has moved. I'll pull the belt off, line it all up & see what happens.

I presume these are an interference engine & it's going to have taken some valves out.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151002_113333.jpg

Thanks for the help guys, I'll no doubt be back soon.

[vincent1]

im not actually sure myself as only worked on a 1.1 8v so im sure. one of the more experienced member will comfirm it they are or not, i suppose you havnt got much too loose by setting it back up and turning it over by hand.

[Phaeton]

I'm clearly missing something somewhere, I'm rotating the engine until No1 is TDC from having a rod down No1 piston, then I am rotating the camshafts individually until they can be locked in place with the drill bits. Putting the belt on, then tensioning, but then when I come to try to rotate the engine it goes solid, I clearly have the timing wrong, but can't find the answer as to what is wrong. Even wondered if I was 360deg out & TDC on No4 but rotated round again to ensure I'm not.

[vincent1]

i wonder if theres two points on the flyweel? some cars have indents etc you can mistake for the timing hole which end are you classing as cylinder 1 gearbox or flywheel end in not sure without looking

[vincent1]

gear box or crank end i meant! sorry cant edit above post although im sure cylinder 1 is flywheel end

[Phaeton]

I've always classed the crank pulley end as No1. Now taken exhaust manifold off & can now see hole about 15mm diameter which I can see the flywheel through but no obvious marks. Had enough for today going to look again in the morning when I'm fresher it may ask fall into place then

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[vincent1]

im still not sure which is classed as cylinder one if it makes a diffrence to cambelt timing this post says gearbox end too
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=361782

[Phaeton]

Thanks for that, learn something new each day, when I was a lad we didn't have these problems, the engine was the right way driving the correct wheels, No1 was at the front behind the radiator, it was only the German's with that funny shaped thing & that new fangled Mini that did it different.

As to whether it matters I'm also not 100% sure, again in the old days it did as you could get the distributor 180degs out & it wouldn't start, but I presume the Saxo uses a wasted spark system so it shouldn't matter, but who knows it is French afterall.

[vincent1]

i would try re timing it from the gear box end someone will let you now later if this is right or wrong as most peoples been at work i guess, but yes cant beat the older engines im 46 so not used to all this modern electronics etc but learning day by day.

[Phaeton]

With the manifold off I could eventually see the hole in question it is still hard to see, but I rotated the crank until the allen key would go in (I was at the correct spot, the crank is mark with a line at the front of the engine, it needs to be at 6 o'clock). However when I tried to rotate the inlet cam it wouldn't rotate enough to get to the locking point, the exhaust was okay. I moved the crank again & was able to then move the inlet to the correct spot, but then I was unable to get the crank to the correct spot.

No point in going round in circles anymore the head has to come off, I undid the cam bolt & removed the pulley's to be greeted with the locating pegs had been sheared.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151003_104343.jpg

The reason I was unable to line it up was the cams had moved, so carried on further & found.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151003_113017.jpg

Which resulted in

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151003_113431.jpg

So that is where I am now, my valve compressor isn't long enough to use to get the collets out but I'm not sure that's the way forward. The bores look really good so I'm out looking for a replacement head or a full engine, there's a few on Facebook, but nobody seems to get back to you.

Also the head gasket that came off was 4 layers is that normal?

Also been offered a low milage JP4 engine, I know it's not an exact straight swap but are there any benefits?

[Gandi699]

Yeah those valves have had it, MLs head gasket is normal on a 16v probably original I'd wager. Jp4 would work yes but it's not a straight fit see the guides on 106rallye register or here - it's covered in depth with good pictures. kkeep your j4 cam shafts and springs or get some after markets designed for the jp4 otherwise if you won't make as much power as before due to the mild jp4 standard camshafts. The fella who wrote the jp4 guide covered all this in however :)


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[Phaeton]

Yeah those valves have had it, MLs head gasket is normal on a 16v probably original I'd wager. Jp4 would work yes but it's not a straight fit see the guides on 106rallye register or here - it's covered in depth with good pictures. kkeep your j4 cam shafts and springs or get some after markets designed for the jp4 otherwise if you won't make as much power as before due to the mild jp4 standard camshafts. The fella who wrote the jp4 guide covered all this in however :)


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Is it necessary to change the springs? Cams are easy clearly but if go for springs as well the head has to come off

[Synister]

At least you have yourself some nicely notched pistons now :P

[Gandi699]

I believe it is necessary, the springs are too soft for the higher rev limit. Maybe you could get away with it but maybe not, even so if it does fail its back to square one.

Good read below, guy made 105bhp on a normal jp4 converted to fit a 106 gti.

http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showthread.php?t=79423

[Phaeton]

I found that one last night just after I took the head off the new engine, I nearly cried when I read

the only exception to this that I am aware of is the engine from the C2 VTS (I think this has the designation TU5JP4S) and pretty much has the same power (if not a little more) than the J4 and this was achieved through a mixture of the improved inlet manifold (alloy rather than plastic) improved ECU and I believe better spec cams so if you can find one of these then this is probably the one to get but I think they are rather rare and when they do come up for sale are pretty much double the cost of any other JP4 but you may get lucky!!

The engine I have got had an alloy manifold on.

But I'm into it now, just need to call round at Machine Mart & pick up new spring compressor mine isn't long enough to get to the collets, I'll compare both sets of cams later as well.

[Gandi699]

what kind of alloy manifold? does it look like this:

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/tipsy_jock/981dbbbc.jpg

If its that one above then it could be a JP4S which the one from the c2 VTS so "better" than a j4 lets say also no need to worry about the cams. Those inlets are worth a bit too if you dont reuse it (needs various bits to work though)

[Phaeton]

I didn't get the manifold the guy had already sold it, but he confirmed it was an alloy one, as said slightly gutted as I have already removed the head it's lovely & clean in there as it's only done 35K, but I am where I am now, so need to get a new head gasket & cambelt. I'd read this one http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323539 & it didn't mention a JP4S

[Gandi699]

pain in the arse that! at least if you have a JP4S it the decent engine, the seller obviously knew that and flogged the inlet for decent money :) Not many people buy the JP4S as its not cheap compared to a JP4.

[Phaeton]

So your thought is not to change the springs just to rebuild the engine with new gaskets, which is good as I also bought another engine off him which I can put my VTS cams & springs in as a spare.

[Gandi699]

obviously check its a JP4S but all being well rebuild. Supposedly the J4 tensioner is better and more sturdy for high rev use than the one on the Jp4/S engines so would be worth using that.
This is something I was considering for mine but I made the choice to go to just J4 as sourcing the j4 bits to go on a Jp4 would have been a pain. However as you have all of them should be a relatively straight forward job.

[Phaeton]

Had a look around the new head tonight & all I can find is

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/9a56be95-f207-46d6-919b-16a7b4c8bf07.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151005_182421.jpg

I measured the lobes on both the J4 cams & the JP4 cams & they were both 46mm I can't measure the the duration though but they seem the same.

Then just for a laugh here's a couple of the valves, one inlet, one exhaust.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/download_20151005_223816.jpeg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/download_20151005_191626.jpeg

[Synister]

Nasty! Any damage to the head?

[Phaeton]

Nasty! Any damage to the head?

There does appear to be a small amount although without a straight valve it's difficult to check, if I was reusing it it may grind back in with a bit of mopping. But I have a full replacement engine, just need to drill the JP4 head to take the J4 inlet manifold, although I may chicken out & let a machine shop do it.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151008_173509.jpg

But at least it was consistent

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151008_172545.jpg

[Synister]

If the new valves seat correctly once you've ground them in I'd leave it at that. At least you've the parts there to fix it.

[Phaeton]

Is there a recommended sealant to use on the cam covers this engined leaked like a Texas oil field, I'd like the new one not to do that

[Phaeton]

Came to rebuild the engine tonight & the wife has cleared away & put somewhere safe the piece of paper with the cam details on it. I have one cam 10A6 5008 & the other 04J5 4998 anyone know which is inlet & which is exhaust

[axsaxoman]

Is there a recommended sealant to use on the cam covers this engined leaked like a Texas oil field, I'd like the new one not to do that
If using j4 cam covers (alloy)
then file off the lugs --then just a small smear will seal perfectly --no need for big bead

[Phaeton]

If using j4 cam covers (alloy)
then file off the lugs --then just a small smear will seal perfectly --no need for big bead

Thanks for that, I'm actually now just rebuilding a C2 VTS lump which I shouldn't have stripped in the first place but we live & learn. You can't help identifying the cams can you I wrote them down on a piece of paper & now can't find it.

[Phaeton]

Just to follow up on identifying the camshafts & my concerns of fitting them on the correct side of the head, I had another look last night & it became blatantly obvious that I had them sat correctly & that you cannot get them the wrong way around. There is a casting within the cam carrier which prevents the cam being put on the wrong side.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151013_174755.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/gsx550es/Saxo%20Track%20Car/20151013_174810.jpg