j4 vs jp4 cast manifolds - turbo application

[smokeandpoke]

Guys

i know you'll have a moan but i keep seeing everyone saying use the c2 or 207 manifolds etc for a budget turbo build

plan was to do it all properly and get a tubular one done blablabla but i havent got the money right now and its depressing my seeing her sitting on the drive everyday just waiting for boost i want her ready for summer really, low boost on a possibly restrictive manifold will do just to get it on the road and put a smile on my face, my daily is a Vectra C and it is BOOOOORRRIIIIING

Whats the difference in the c2 to vts manifolds?
could i not just use the one from the vts?

to be fair ive not worked on the car much since i bought it im just accumulating parts so havent actually had it off to have a proper look - just wanted to know if it was worth me doing so and if so will whip it off in the week and get a plate made up
i get its probably restrictive and il have to get it mapped when i get a proper manifold but as i say i want to know if it will do for now, think islayer said he did his on a vtr and managed to get 160 out of it.
once the tubby goes on its not going to have amazing top end anyway only going small everyone seems to be going for gt25's or 28's

While im here - best donor car to snatch a turbo from? or order a reconditioned one should i say
i know diesel turbos will be no good but doesnt seem to be an abundance of petrol turbos off the top of my head, K04 be a bit big i should think especially with a small manifold

thanks guys

[axsaxoman]

absolutly no need for a tubular manifold --ever --its alll about "bling"
youwill never find one fitted to any OE car --
and unless you are going for MEGA bhp +revs --no need
which from your post you are not
gt 28 is BIG turbo --unless you have loads of money for all other upgrades --don,t fit that
search on here lots of turbo posts

[smokeandpoke]

absolutly no need for a tubular manifold --ever --its alll about "bling"
youwill never find one fitted to any OE car --
and unless you are going for MEGA bhp +revs --no need
which from your post you are not
gt 28 is BIG turbo --unless you have loads of money for all other upgrades --don,t fit that
search on here lots of turbo posts

Haha thanks i thought as much, my buddy's got escorts and i spoke to him about it and he persuaded me cast iron will mean certain death, but unlike his escorts im not going for magazine articles i just want it as a toy.
To be fair i dont give a shit how it looks as long as it works!

200 would my absolute limit, i doubt it would even reach that on mild boost and standard internals (comfortably and reliably)

I've since found out the standard j4 manifold is too long, is this right?
so i need to get a jp4 manifold, just need to know the ideal donor.

I've tried searching and right you are there are many turbo threads etc, but i'm new to petrol turbos so im not sure where to start, gt25 28 etc etc doesn't mean an awful lot to me, part numbers don't really give me a starting point. i've seen people mention a few different turbo donors - 207 gtis, saab 9-3 9-5's etc (although when i looked it up they use a gt17, which is apparently the same as on my cdti vectra, so not suitable? this may just be the diesels)
preferably something a bit dated that i could pick up a recon turbo reasonably cheap.

What do other guys take the tubbys off?
ive looked into it and it doesnt seem as simple as buying a gtXX off the shelf, found the same turbos with different housings to accomodate which vehicle they're on etc.


So with my 200bhp top limit in mind, what would be the turbo to go for?
if i have an idea of which turbo im looking to buy, i can begin to looks for a vehicle that its on? failing that someone really helpful might share their experience on what they've used a turbo from.


Thanks again

[AXracing]

The T or GT number on Garrett is simply the family they belong to. Normally the bigger the number the larger the unit is however this does not directly translate to how much the turbo can flow. I like to use the old T3 family that had models ranging from ones that are happy on small 90bhp engines yet other models more at home on massive 400+ bhp engines. So its the actual specifics of the turbo that are important.

These days most retail models are sold with a given recommended power range that can be useful basic guide for relatively standard instillation. This may help you https://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/

If you get a OEM unit of a production car if you pic one with a similar engine spec to what your after obtaining you will not be far off. There are plent of petrol engines around the 200bhp mark so a OEM one should be simple enough to get. If it is a cheap used one be careful that you will be able to get a replacement. No point sorting out custom piping only to work out you will have to redo it after a few months because you cant get a replacement turbo for a duff one.

If you are looking at OEM models be careful of getting one of a diesel. Some but not all diesel turbos are specif for diesel use only. Diesel engines produce far cooler and less corrosive exhaust gasses so not all diesel turbos will last long on petrol engines. Avoid VNT Garrett diesel turbos as they have got issues. Garrett turbos you can normally get the full spec with a few phone calls.

In a Saxo I would recommend opting for a water cooled turbo as space is tight at the best of times so sorting out a good flow of cold air for your turbo could be an issue if you opt for air cooled. Its also worth fitting a oil cooler.

[Chipwizards]

Have you considered using the 207GTi turbo and manifold? It will be a bit of a squeeze in a Saxo but if you're willing to shuffle things about a bit you'll get it in.

It's the right size, made from the right materials, they are readily available for cheap money and they 'almost' bolt on. The downpipe even almost fits, it just needs shortening so it's not too low to the ground because the 207 engine is taller.

[smokeandpoke]

The T or GT number on Garrett is simply the family they belong to. Normally the bigger the number the larger the unit is however this does not directly translate to how much the turbo can flow. I like to use the old T3 family that had models ranging from ones that are happy on small 90bhp engines yet other models more at home on massive 400+ bhp engines. So its the actual specifics of the turbo that are important.

These days most retail models are sold with a given recommended power range that can be useful basic guide for relatively standard instillation. This may help you https://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/

If you get a OEM unit of a production car if you pic one with a similar engine spec to what your after obtaining you will not be far off. There are plent of petrol engines around the 200bhp mark so a OEM one should be simple enough to get. If it is a cheap used one be careful that you will be able to get a replacement. No point sorting out custom piping only to work out you will have to redo it after a few months because you cant get a replacement turbo for a duff one.

If you are looking at OEM models be careful of getting one of a diesel. Some but not all diesel turbos are specif for diesel use only. Diesel engines produce far cooler and less corrosive exhaust gasses so not all diesel turbos will last long on petrol engines. Avoid VNT Garrett diesel turbos as they have got issues. Garrett turbos you can normally get the full spec with a few phone calls.

In a Saxo I would recommend opting for a water cooled turbo as space is tight at the best of times so sorting out a good flow of cold air for your turbo could be an issue if you opt for air cooled. Its also worth fitting a oil cooler.


There's a lot to it isn't there, as i say ive tried to read up on it all but i've just confused myself, what information would garrett give me?
for example if i rang them and said 'its for a saxo' they'd probably laugh at me!
Yeah i wouldnt want anything variable vane, just something small as i say im not going for huge boost, just want something that will spool fast and be reliable.

oil cooler etc etc is all on the 'proposed spec' list, it's really just the turbo i'm not sure about.

To be honest, i'm swayed towards one off a subaru as there are so many about and reconditioned ones wouldn't be too hard to get hold of.
Don't know too much about them, i imagine the larger displacement ones have a larger turbo. Would i be ok to go for one from the old old shape (93 - 01) 214bhp 'turbo 2000' whatever they're called, think its the uk 'wrx' not the sti?

A quick google has returned there are at least 4 different turbo's used on the imprezas since '93, this is the smallest one which i assume other people have used:

Mitsubishi TD04L-13T

(390cfm at 14.7psi, 200-275whp, Bolt-On)
This is the standard equipment turbocharger used on the USDM Subaru Impreza WRX MY02-07.
Expect to achieve full boost with the proper mods and a quality tune between 2500-3000rpms.


I know that's a US site but i would imagine td04 is td04, is this the one to look out for?
if so will get onto it this evening and have a look :)




RE 207 manifold - the engine looks nothing similar, i'd rather not have to retap or drill anything out, if the c2 one goes straight on il source one of those and have an adapter made up but thanks anyway :)

[smokeandpoke]

So long as i keep it to a turbo off a 2.0 not the 2.5 should be ok, from the stuff i posted above looks like i want one off a bug eye.
there was a td04 19t but this is bigger.

sorry for being a pain!

[AXracing]

Garrett agents will only give you technical data. It's quite raw data so you do have to be a bit keyed on to get anything over useful from it.

Chipwizard is quite well known in the Saxo world. I suspect if he says the pug parts will fit relatively easily then I would be inclined to explore that a little further. It sounds a lot simpler than back when it was all custom parts.

[Chipwizards]

RE 207 manifold - the engine looks nothing similar, i'd rather not have to retap or drill anything out, if the c2 one goes straight on il source one of those and have an adapter made up but thanks anyway :)

Well I have one working a treat on my C2.

There's one stud to move, if you want to make a proper job of things. You could maybe manage without it or make a small part to carry the load from the original stud. There's a bit of hole-filing etc to do as well.

A bloody sight less work that making some sort of adapter for a manifold that definitely isn't made of material with enough Nickel in it in order to last very long...

http://www.c2club.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=17107&d=1453842433

[smokeandpoke]

Well I have one working a treat on my C2.

There's one stud to move, if you want to make a proper job of things. You could maybe manage without it or make a small part to carry the load from the original stud. There's a bit of hole-filing etc to do as well.

A bloody sight less work that making some sort of adapter for a manifold that definitely isn't made of material with enough Nickel in it in order to last very long...

http://www.c2club.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=17107&d=1453842433

This is very true, i wouldn't want to leave mani unbolted will just end up blowing and cause more problems than its worth for the time it would take to do it properly. It may well work Wayne, just when i looked up the 207 engines it looks completely different to the tu's, on first glance didn't look like it would work 'just like that' and thought it would be very involved.

Would you be able to give me any more information about the work involved i.e which bolt hole and what goes where? I suppose an exhaust gasket for each would be a good starting point.
Can't imagine they'd be too much difference price wise but if i can keep it all PSA then all the better i suppose, at least i'll know for definite which turbo i want and can get a peugeot part number, will save all sorts of hassle bearing in mind im not too clued up on the technical side of the turbo world

Is there a thread anywhere that has done it this way just for a starting point?

I believe you said it's quite tight, are we talking 'tight' as in a very nice professional looking fit and finish or are we talking 'tight' as in cut up fingers and lots of swearing? If using the 207 manifold and turbo, would it be an idea to take the intercooler too or am i better off just getting a custom jobbie, all depends on the size of it really.
Obviously the manifold is something i will pass on to our mechanic but i intend to do much of the conversion myself, the mechanical side of things i can do!

[smokeandpoke]

Also - i assume i want the 175bhp not the 150

Will all come down to cost ultimately, don't think i've ever actually seen a 207 gti lol can't see one breaking cheaply, i had the subaru idea as the turbos can be had for pennies and my mechanic would weld up an adapter for a drink

[Chipwizards]

In my C2 it's tight like it was designed to live there because the hose routing etc all follow the shape of the things around them, so it looks pretty OE apart from the boy-racer-blue intake elbow (they didn't have a suitable black one) and the hose clips I used are the big serious ones, not because it runs silly boost because it actually runs very low boost, I just hate shit hose clips that are made of chocolate and strip for fun etc.

You'll either have to have a rad/intercooler pack made or fit one in front of the rad. I just used the HDi one because mine needs very little cooling because the boost is only low so it doesn't generate the heat. Coolers are only £70 and they fit perfectly in the space provided in the front panel, again keeping with the OE look.

How much power are you looking for?

[smokeandpoke]

That makes sense, oe mani and turbo it is essentially made to be there wiring will be tidy enough but id sort that either way bit on a bay slut lol. I've been there with cheap clips!

I haven't got my heart set on any figures ill be happy with whatever it makes as long as its built right and reliable, a lot of it will be largely down to which turbo I use I would have thought.

I've got a basic 'recipe' just from all the other build threads, with the same fuelling capability compression and cooling it depends whether I go low boost or forged and high boost.
For now it's only a weekend toy but will hopefully see track time, so it doesn't need to be tarmac eating monster I don't have the money for an lsd right now so can't be too much, it's been ages since I've been in a saxo and the vtr surprised a lot of things and would leave most things on b roads lol, it would just be nice to have a bit more under your bum and still have it handle like a go kart :)

Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk

[Chipwizards]

I'd go for a BE as well. You'll have to upgrade the clutch so you'll have the gearbox out, so you may as well fit a stronger one while you're at it.

[smokeandpoke]

so i found a c2/206/307 manifold ebay number 201533748425

can someone confirm this is definitely the right one i want to allow clearance for tubby
if so will buy now and source a turbo...
Will be going with gt17 if i can find one from a petrol if not then td04 from the subaru as they are ten to a penny.

207 thp's few and far between its just not a feasible option.

[smokeandpoke]

I'd go for a BE as well. You'll have to upgrade the clutch so you'll have the gearbox out, so you may as well fit a stronger one while you're at it.

a BE would be good, all in good time. low boost for now.
right now she's still as i bought her, i need to get rid of my vtr really to be able to work on it properly, my driveway is literally like / gradient, vtr is at the top on the flat but clutch is fucked and to be honest i begrudge it a new one as it's never going to be driven and wont sell.

my initial plan was to get the vts back to 'road legal', tidy up the bodywork, and i did want to rebuild it all from the ground up, new bearings and gaskets top to bottom. needs a proper head rebuild so may look at other options there other than standard rebuild.

Just accumulating parts at the moment, i need a front bumper, some jp4 rocker covers and the rest of the internal bits and bobs.
Will have it built back up and hopefully running as new, at which point i will start putting the turbo bits on!
some may say why bother worrying about turbo etc etc but in my mind i'd rather buy everything first and build it up week by week than get halfway through and realise i cant afford to sink any more money into it.

I managed to find one 207, but didnt get a reply for the price etc. thus as above, i will be going c2/subaru route just for ease of obtaining parts.
the one i put ebay number to above looks shorter than the vts/vtr ones like someone said, i trust this is the right one?

Once it's all built im bound to get the bug but forged etc really isn't on the cards right now, due a pay rise next month so we shall see what i can do by the summer :)

[Chipwizards]

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[smokeandpoke]

141910456528
401067314466

dude what the shit?!
i suppose i was only looking for 'breaking'

what are the turbos like to source, i take it you'd have part numbers etc if you've built one before. at which point would the turbo from the 207 150 become restrictive, like what's it maximum potential?

Dead set against c2 bodge manifold?

[smokeandpoke]

also, is it more troublesome with the hot pipe out that side, a lot of builds seem to have it the other way round. not saying it's wrong, just seems easier with regards to plumbing it all in?