Issue - TU5JP4 with Catcams

[PedroCochofel]

I, my name is Pedro and I own a Peugeot 206 1.6 16v (TU5JP4)
The car was running 149 BHP with custom ECU, Supersprint exhaust manifold, and pipe, C2 VTS aluminium intake manifold, peugeot sport induction kit (from Volant XS Challenge) and TU5J4 cams.
I was thinking on puting a more sportive camshaft and a friend of mine told all about the Catcams 1322705. The cams lobes sit correctly above the TU5JP4 valves and that is better to use than the 1321743, since it has the same profile as the 743 but for the JP4 engine.
Another friend of mine has a TU5J4 with a pair of 743 and exactaly the same mods that I have and the car rubs about 164 bhp... So I was expecting the same HP that he has. The mechanic were the same, the ECU guy was the same and after instaling the cams 1322705 and mapping, I had exactaly the same horsepower that I have with the Saxo VTS (TU5J4) cams on... I was very surprised and a bit frustrated I have to say... The botton line is that I have exactely the same power with Saxo VTS cams on that I have with the 1322705 Catcams... :n:
Have anyone tried these camshaft already? I could realy use some help... Cheers from Portugal!!

[axsaxoman]

you remapping std ecu ?
what is max rpm before revlimter ?
electronic fly by wire throtlle?
it will be your ecu set -up

[jeffchiz]

I have a jp4 engine sat in my saxo running 705's, im under the assumption I will get around 155bhp with them when mapped (when I finally get the car road worthy)

As far as I am aware the 705's have the same spec's as the j4 708's, either way the lift and duration is more extreme compared to the standard jp4 cams so the problem must lie elsewhere

164bhp seems too high a figure for a j4 with 743's, if anything your car with the larger jp4 valves will produce more power than a j4 equivalent, however as I said earlier im sure the 705's are the equivalent of the 708's. The 743's produce more power than 708's so you can't really compare the 705's with 743's

[PedroCochofel]

Thank you for your help guys!
@axsaxoman: Yes, we've remap the standard boch Me744. It was a pain in the ass to figure out the idle maps after we installed the 705... But we did it! Rev limit with saxo vts cams on was 7500 RPM. With the 705, we've change it to 8000 (we've also change the followers and hats). What do you mean by electronic fly by wire throtlle?
@jeffchiz: You're correct, I shouldn't be comparing the 705 with the 743...But, another friend of mine has a Saxo with a pair of 708 and is running 159bhp... Same mods that I have... What I cant understand is how in the earth I'm making the same power with the Catcams 705 on, has I was making with a pair of standard TU5J4 (Saxo VTS) cams... That I can not understand :n: I have the maps but I cant attached them here, only by URL, and I dont know how to do it :n:
What do you think?

[jeffchiz]

to put it in perspective I got 155bhp with 708's, jenvey throttle bodies and a predator ecu with a custom remap at Northampton Motorsport

Figures can be misleading, always take rolling road figures with a pinch of salt, even the same road can give different figures on different days

[jeffchiz]

you should start a little progress thread on here so we can see some pics. Ive noticed you've called your car a 'gti', over here the gti is a 2.0 16v with 138bhp, do you get that model? or is your car not technically a gti?

[PedroCochofel]

I d really like to start a progress thread here, can you walk me through the first steps? In Portugal the 1.6 16v TU5JP4 is called GTI, we being a "poor" country and all, PSA thought it was the better marketing stratergy to follow... Here the 138bhp is called 206 GT, and the 180bhp, the RC!! I know that figures can some how be misleading, however the bench (rolling road) and the ECU guy were the same, and with the catcams I managed to do the same BHP as I was able to do with a par of Saxo Vts cams on... And that I really can't understand... But the most important thing is that driving the car I didn't fell any difference at all with the catcams on... Apart for doing 8000rpm, the car is pretty much the same... In my last post I've said that i ve changed the followers, I meant spring valves and hats...

[Chipwizards]

Maybe your tuner has a better understanding of the earlier Marelli ECU than he does of the Bosch ECU.
Most 'Tuners' just chuck some ignition advance in the file and call it a 'remap'.
Idle maps are easy to find in ME7, so maybe he's not very experienced with them?

[PedroCochofel]

Thanks Chipwizard for your comment! Actually, the guy that remap my car is a pretty good friend of mine... But you're right, he as a lot more experience with the Marelli than he has with the Bosh! He did manage to find the idle map, actually there were four idle maps, and he was able to remap the car! But one thing that strikes us was that after the catcams were installed, the mix was supposed to be dry (I dont know if its the correct word), but it wasnt... The mix was rich... More lift, more duration, so the mix should be dry, not rich... Yesterday we re-check the diagram and it was slightly of point. Catcams marks were 110º and 106º, and my car were 114º and 109... Ware going to remap it again these week!! Do you guys think it could be it?

[axsaxoman]

fly by wire throttle = no throttle cable -electronic operation -so ecu controls how it opens
has your man turned off the adapative mapping control --if not it will try to remap it every time it starts up to get fuelling back to very clean road legal emissions even on acceleration = that will kill the power no need for 8k rev limter amx power will be made,depending on how you set cams somewhere between 7200+7500--so 8k --is just making a noise

[Chipwizards]

Lambda is ignored at full throttle John. Adaptions only upset it if the part throttle and idle mapping is wrong in the first place. It's easy to turn the closed loop off anyway if it isn't running a cat.

8k limit is pointless, agreed.

The fueling will be rich with longer cams because the manifold vacuum is reduced and the ECU assumes that cylinder filling is increased, but in fact it is reduced due to reversion and consequential reduction of volumetric efficiency. The ECU doesn't know this unless the mapping is done properly to reflect the prevailing VE at all loads and speeds. It's absolutely essential to emulate the chip when mapping these, otherwise you are definitely wandering around in the dark.

[axsaxoman]

Lambda is ignored at full throttle John. Adaptions only upset it if the part throttle and idle mapping is wrong in the first place. It's easy to turn the closed loop off anyway if it isn't running a cat.

8k limit is pointless, agreed.

The fueling will be rich with longer cams because the manifold vacuum is reduced and the ECU assumes that cylinder filling is increased, but in fact it is reduced due to reversion and consequential reduction of volumetric efficiency. The ECU doesn't know this unless the mapping is done properly to reflect the prevailing VE at all loads and speeds. It's absolutely essential to emulate the chip when mapping these, otherwise you are definitely wandering around in the dark.
the base car is a 206 --so if it has electronic throttle think there could be other issues--like it will close throttle if it senses any wheel spin etc which only needs to be 300rpm difference between engine and what it should be for it to activated + will only open up at a rate to keep it running at lambda 1 --eg no extra accel fuelling --if it is still as factory set it --al these things will make it dull.

I have found that cars with adapative +electronic throttle --but not disabled- re write map back to std over a period of time
--had all these problems when i fitted s/c to a c2 vtr
only thing i could find at time to fit simply was an AEM fic controller --that kept rest of car happy as well--elec steering + esp etc
.as you know wayne i don,t remap std ecu,s only fit stand alone or gadgets

i fully understand all these things can be altered --but many people don,t know how

[KamRacing]

plastic inlet manifold?

[PedroCochofel]

@KamRacing: No, I'm using the C2 VTS aluminium intake manifold.
@AxSaxoMan & Chipwizard: I'm going to pass the information that you guys gave me to Artur, the guy that mapped my car
Thanks guys!!