Saxo vtr turbo boost pressure vs standard engine components query

[henryvtr]

Hi all, it's been a while since I've been on here but a lot has been done, in brief had this car about 8/9 years and at the start of this year it got boost, my query is over boost levels
is there a known limit as opinion varies so wildly,
Currently 200ftlb and 160hp with 0.5 bar boost(used to pull 120hp 130ftlb n/a) and really am wondering the limits, I have a 0.6 actuator which I want to run and wouldn't go more than 0.7 bar anyway but it could be a expensive afternoon at the dyno if the motor shits itself.
Engine also still running the piper 285 ultimate road cam and seems good. I did fit a 1.9mm head gasket so hopefully that helps to some extent.
I am using the emu det3 piggyback for management, runs standalone fueling and boost control via a solonoid and piggybacks ignition, using 350cc injectors and have changed fuel reg down to a 3bar one. I am using a front mount intercooler along with Ali rad and oil cooler.
so in summary , will I get away with 9/10psi--0.6/0.7 bar as I am
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/40511648-F264-4A29-8374-A35A3FF181C4_zpsq5v4tnxj.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/40511648-F264-4A29-8374-A35A3FF181C4_zpsq5v4tnxj.jpg.html)

[welshpug]

Personally I'd bung a milder cam in it, probably standard, and give it a bar, with a long duration n-a cam you're likely to have too much overlap and blowing the charge straight through rather than filling the cylinders.

[henryvtr]

The cam isnt that wild they may call it a 285 but it's nothing more than a Newman stage3 or similar. i do still have the standard cam but obviously at this point it would mean removing the head again something I wouldn't mind avoiding. would I not be safe at 10 psi as I am now then as it will still make good power ?

[axsaxoman]

too wild for boost using std rpm --which is what you -should be doing-or buy a specific turbo cam -not an N/A cam

would study your graph if it was right way up
and it showed the fuelling--without that no one can give you any sensible advice

[henryvtr]

Reason for the cam being used was due to already having. Is it really a wild cam over the standard item?
So to summarise I should ditch the cam before I use more boost then potentially upto a bar? Or could I get away with 9/10psi with the cam I'm running ? Could you elaborate more as it doesn't feel as tho the cam is holding me back and it responded well to 7psi so far?

[sri_130]

Reason for the cam being used was due to already having. Is it really a wild cam over the standard item?
So to summarise I should ditch the cam before I use more boost then potentially upto a bar? Or could I get away with 9/10psi with the cam I'm running ? Could you elaborate more as it doesn't feel as tho the cam is holding me back and it responded well to 7psi so far?

Take heed of the above posts.
When i was looking for a wilder cam on bodies, I was looking at the ph3/equivalent!

[axsaxoman]

there is little point in saying anything to you as you are not giving us the info to give correct answers to your questions
why you would want to LOWER fuel pressure when injectors as supposed to run at 3bar as std with N/a --but with1bar of boost the actual pressure the injector is trying to inject at is effectually 2 bar when you have a 1 bar of boost --that won,t give a good pattern ,why do think that a lot of std boosted cars run 4bar or more fuel pressure regs ?
reducing fuel pressure to try to compensate for over size injectors --thats a joke --map the fuel correctly and use at least a fuel reg that is 3 bar over max boost .

[henryvtr]

Standard fuel reg was 3.5 bar and I was running a 4bar reg from yourself I bought many many years ago n/a, but my mapper said was to much, so we came down to a 3bar reg to suit injectors as yes he did say they are a little big at 350cc (although I'm sure people run bigger) the fuelling is mapped correctly to my knowledge as it does run spot on and I have no issues. I can only guess the fuelling is correct as it was setup on dyno and then I road tested and went back for tweaks.
I did ask about putting the 3.5 reg back in but he said it would just make it rich and he would then need to start again I regards to setup.
I genuinely apriciate your comments but am stuck with what info you need, I don't have fuelling graphs either sorry, the fuelling is controlled directly via the piggyback emu it runs standalone injection and boost is paired with it.

[henryvtr]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/40511648-F264-4A29-8374-A35A3FF181C4_zpsaugluznj.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/40511648-F264-4A29-8374-A35A3FF181C4_zpsaugluznj.jpg.html)
The right way up hopefully

[henryvtr]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/71618826-386A-4585-BE9F-F8645FB4304D_zpszxgp4yjn.png (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/71618826-386A-4585-BE9F-F8645FB4304D_zpszxgp4yjn.png.html)
This is the spec of the cam

[axsaxoman]

piper 285 cam should give max power at 6800
your max power is at 4700and then drops so must but lots wrong with the set-up -my guess is its very rich -+ retarded but could also be exhaust system restrictions or turbo/manifold
even though boost is dropping the power should keep rising if only due to cam profile suggest you buy a w/b lambda and then you will see yourself what fuelling is doing

[henryvtr]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/CC0642DE-3706-4A4F-845D-A545FD44489A_zpsnza4bxdz.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/CC0642DE-3706-4A4F-845D-A545FD44489A_zpsnza4bxdz.jpg.html)
This is before and after having the standard ecu chipped and rev limit raised, as you can clearly see this cam has no intention of making full power at 6800, this is a 8 valve engine just to be clear, I had also played with the cam timing and that setup was best on road tests. You say at 4700 which yes it is but also has 150-160hp from 4K to 5.5k, which is very usable. Out of intrest what would one of your supercharger kits make at 7psi on a 1600 8v then on stock internals ? Fuelling is far from rich I was told but may invest in a afr out of curiosity. Can't help but think you just don't like turbochargers lol thanks for input tho

[axsaxoman]

I think over the last 20 years of tuning ax8v,s and saxo,s iknow where a piper 285 cam should make max power
but lets just say my memory is wrong --your std N/a made max power at 5500 with no boost --so boost should carry the power on longer not drop it down .unless there is some other restricting factor,which is what I tried to tell you.
as me not liking turbo,s -for fwd cars NO ,not for aftermarket
not without very good boost control -which you have none of - as the way the power is made makes it hard to get traction , but at 7psi its only a whiff of boost anyway
s/c cars the power climbs as boost rises as boost on s/c is directly proportional to engine rpm --so you max bph at close to max rpm --and is delivered in an oderly manner so you drive car like an N/A car which has a na engine twice the size
suggest you go look at planetsax project page _+vids to see how and s/c works +how drivable it it is ,and not just in a straight line
but my experience with turbo,s started back in 1976 when I turboed a hillman imp and won the esso uniflow autocross championship ,then in1977 an rs2000,
then in 1979 I built the FIRST turbo subaru--a 4fwd OHV pickup --so i do know how turbo,s work
guessing again --you have lowered comp right down and not got fuelling or advance curve right?
If so dropping comp to 8-1 or something then first 4psi is effectually lost getting the dynamic comp ratio back to std comp --so that could be why its not making power --not enough PIFF -
modern OEM trubo cars run at 10-1+1bar or more of boost , but with correct ecu set-up +turbo control + fly by wire throttle
-
It could even be the std knock sensor retarding timing cos it don,t like your piggy back ?
home made turbo manifold?what size turbo?--so many possible places for things to be wrong--but max bhp at 4.7k + max torque 3.5k--thats like a tractor engine -
your boost peaks then drops back --why? whole purpose of wastegate is too hold it at a set pressure
these are the questions you should be asking --
If you sniff the oil filler cap --can you smell petrol --then its too rich somewhere =better get it sorted or oil will be like water and bores+rings will wear out
you need ,as i said before defintive data of fuel +timings when its under load to make valued judgements on the whats going on

[henryvtr]

I am in no way doubting your knowledge you really dnt need to prove your point as I'm well aware of what you've achieved. I am grateful for your input, in regards to comp I should be 9-1, it honestly feels n/a and how that graph translates on the road is very different, you do say about the peak but the peak hangs around abit dosnt just disappear after, does feel like a diesal on steroids but loves to pull you round to 6,2k without feeling like its sapping in power, manifold setup is the old Miltek/ci tuning and seems fine for what I need, yes the turbo is small, but I have instant boost literally, gt1752, boost peaks then drops as the actuator is origanal 4.5psi Saab item and weak as, hence my origanal question,
Could I use a 0.6 bar actuator (9psi) use that as a base and perhaps progress the boost upto 0.7 over the Rev range as yes the boost is controlled by the piggyback via a solonoid and is mapped,
My tuner says as he increases boost the power and torque should move up accordingly but I'm not sure if 9/10psi 0.6/0.7 bar is safe, i could have the boost run from 9psi and have it raise slightly with rpm etc but my mapper doesn't want a mess on his dyno.
What are considered to be boost limits for the 8v standard guts ?

[MartinObviously]

Step 1: Get a normal camshaft
Step 2: Keep the standard comp ratio
Step 3: Get a proper ECU that will be able to control what's going on.

Anyways, if your turbo control valve is controlled by the piggy back, use the piggy back to increase the boost. don't keep tightening the actuator by winding it in a few turns or changing the spring.

Your mapper should know how much boost is safe. If it's an old engine that's not been rebuilt, I wouldn't try to squeeze any more power out of it with your current setup.a piggy back is always a "make-do" kind of thing.

There is no "boost limit". It's all down to air flow, knock, heat etc. You could have a little turbo running 10PSi, but a larger one running 5PSi could flow the same air at a given rpm.

[henryvtr]

Yes Martin I understand about the camshaft but I won't be stripping the head anytime soon. Regarding the comp it is pretty much standard (well 9:5-1 is anyway and should only be 9-1). We did turn the boost up again via the piggyback but only 5% so very marginal gains,
The engine only has about 85k on it and 50k was as bog standard motor so quite s healthy lump.
Piggybacks have moved forward a lot after all it is 2017, emu det3 have a look, runs standalone fuelling and boost control then just sorts timing when boost is read via its own map sensor.
Think I may just give it a go anyway

[MartinObviously]

Yes Martin I understand about the camshaft but I won't be stripping the head anytime soon. Regarding the comp it is pretty much standard (well 9:5-1 is anyway and should only be 9-1). We did turn the boost up again via the piggyback but only 5% so very marginal gains,
The engine only has about 85k on it and 50k was as bog standard motor so quite s healthy lump.
Piggybacks have moved forward a lot after all it is 2017, emu det3 have a look, runs standalone fuelling and boost control then just sorts timing when boost is read via its own map sensor.
Think I may just give it a go anyway

You know what, just go for it. if it goes bang, just get another 8v. they're peanuts!

[Chipwizards]

One big benefit too often overlooked with a stock ECU is diagnostics and fault finding. Any decent garage can connect and read fault codes and look at live data. Wiring is also all stock, so a wiring diagram for the stock car, again almost any garage will have the info, is applicable when you need to find faults.

Fit a piggy back or aftermarket ECU and all that goes out of the window. Suppose you go for a drive a long way from home, you'd have to take you laptop, multi-meter and wiring diagrams with you in case you have an issue.

Another thing is reliability. OEM ECUs goes through millions of cycles to test reliability, aftermarket stuff doesn't.

Another thing is installation. Most people fitting piggy-back systems very foolishly solder the wires. Soldering wires is a big no-no. The solder capillaries along the wire and where it stops the wire becomes brittle, after time and a little vibration the wire will break, not to mention that flux is corrosive. You aren't even allowed to solder wires in an aircraft, except in certain and very limited circumstances because they fall out of the sky and kill people if you do.

[MartinObviously]

One big benefit too often overlooked with a stock ECU is diagnostics and fault finding. Any decent garage can connect and read fault codes and look at live data. Wiring is also all stock, so a wiring diagram for the stock car, again almost any garage will have the info, is applicable when you need to find faults.

Fit a piggy back or aftermarket ECU and all that goes out of the window. Suppose you go for a drive a long way from home, you'd have to take you laptop, multi-meter and wiring diagrams with you in case you have an issue.

Another thing is reliability. OEM ECUs goes through millions of cycles to test reliability, aftermarket stuff doesn't.

Another thing is installation. Most people fitting piggy-back systems very foolishly solder the wires. Soldering wires is a big no-no. The solder capillaries along the wire and where it stops the wire becomes brittle, after time and a little vibration the wire will break, not to mention that flux is corrosive. You aren't even allowed to solder wires in an aircraft, except in certain and very limited circumstances because they fall out of the sky and kill people if you do.

Can you control a turbo control valve with the standard ECU? are there any "spare" pins?

[henryvtr]

Chip wizards if you wernt 3+ hours away from me I'm sure I would of contacted you for mapping,would of loved to have it using only stock ecu. out of intrest what size injectors would you of used ? And have you had good results from the 8v with a small turbo with the stock ecu? What is your limit with stock internals regarding boost ?
Martin I would do mate but I want to no it will at least leave the dyno In a clean statel.
But yes vtr lumps are not the dearest.
In regards to what John said earlier on about peak power I will upload another example graph to show how tight the dyno is with its numbers

[henryvtr]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/EF86FAA6-E079-4626-90C5-FBACC360E3C6_zpsedkfk0pz.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/EF86FAA6-E079-4626-90C5-FBACC360E3C6_zpsedkfk0pz.jpg.html)
This is what I wanted to replicate to some extent obviously not the numbers but the same drive style. 5pot 2.5 turbo, uses low pressure little turbo as standard and packs a punch with the help of a known map. tuner figures are 340hp 400ish ftlb, and it will make it on there dyno and many others but not on this one lol. Peak at 4800 and is defo not a tractor engine John lol. I've only used this dyno and so all my comparisons and testing is on this dyno. This probably being the reason I see nothing wrong with it and feel more boost wouldn't harm it.

[welshpug]

http://rs1228.pbsrc.com/albums/ee457/SevernValleyMotorsport/gtr%20francis/IMG-20150618-WA0000%201_zps9rocbkrn.jpg?w=480&h=480&fit=clip

I'd rather have a turbo engine deliver a graph like this one...

[welshpug]

I go 3.5 hours each way for mapping and know plenty that ho much further.

[henryvtr]

Indeed I would love a graph like that but I would need to get rid of the small turbo lol. I could of had it trailered up there but it just adds to cost, then whenever I changed something id have to go back up north, my thinking for using local is as I no the dyno and it's a few miles from me so I can change and tweak as and when.

[henryvtr]

My Ford Focus vs a gtr , happened at Santa pod and It felt like I wasn't moving as it shifted off lol

[welshpug]

that gtr isn't running big turbos, granted its a 4.2, its running about 1.2 bar on pump fuel iirc.

I meant the curves not the numbers though.

[MartinObviously]

What turbocharger are you using on your 8v? Specifically.

Any pics of your setup as well? Exhaust etc.

[henryvtr]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/BD1C515C-8268-4AB1-8AEC-3E7D10509ABF_zpsgydqzkbh.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/BD1C515C-8268-4AB1-8AEC-3E7D10509ABF_zpsgydqzkbh.jpg.html)
Gt1752 turbo, ci tuning mani and Downpipe, saxsport exhaust. Lightweight flywheel and pullys, vernier can pully, piper 285 cam. Tiny bit of head work (more of a general clean up)
Fuel reg vac pipe disconnected along with fuel vapour thing disconnected(told it leaked boost),fuel reg 3 bar and 350cc injectors from a 8v saab I believe. Injectors are very relaxed I was told and there plenty good enough for future. And fuelling was spot on I was told. The det3 runs the injectors as standalone and boost solonoid. There is a dummy load on old injector feed hence the resistors. Boost pipes are 57mm all round. It did do about 200 mile on dyno during setup and was with him for a for a while so he could adjust cold starts etc. Did have a dump valve but was told it doesn't need it running such little boost and it feels better through the gears without it, the dump t has been filled with the idle control valve breather as I was told keeping equal pressure both sides will help it not to bleed. I've now done about 600 mile and all is good but wouldn't mind running 0.6/9psi across the whole rev range if the motor can take it.
Engine bay has changed since as that is a few weeks old but only regarding piggyback placement and general tidy up of cabling etc
Thing is I see loads around the net about vts taking 0.7 bar to a bar with good fueling so why can the 8v not do it as I though the bottom ends are near identical?

[henryvtr]

Whelshpug you say isn't running big TURBOS, as in a pair I take it, each one is probably twice the size as mine lol
And yes I would love my graph to look like that but without going crazy like them Greek boys or whoever does them 0-400 pugs and Saxos with big turbos I doubt I'll get anywhere near it lol

[welshpug]

you don't need mad power to get a good shape to the curve, just a well thought out build with all the parts chosen to work together, which its quite obvious you haven't got.

[axsaxoman]

it does have an intercooler?--that would def kill power as air temp above 4psi boost would kill power
7psi boost and no intercooler air temps will be hitting 80c at a guess -
might be worth checking inletair temps under boost anyway --if high that will kill the power

[Chipwizards]

Chip wizards if you wernt 3+ hours away from me I'm sure I would of contacted you for mapping,would of loved to have it using only stock ecu. out of intrest what size injectors would you of used ? And have you had good results from the 8v with a small turbo with the stock ecu? What is your limit with stock internals regarding boost ?
Martin I would do mate but I want to no it will at least leave the dyno In a clean statel.
But yes vtr lumps are not the dearest.
In regards to what John said earlier on about peak power I will upload another example graph to show how tight the dyno is with its numbers

Only three hours? Local then...

Injector size requirements would depend on several things, such as whether you have a regulator on the rail with a return or not. If not, it does limit how much boost you can run but with the boost that you are likely to want it wouldn't be a problem.

If your car is for daily road use, don't ruin it by fitting a turbo that is too big. Not getting boost until 4000 rpm is great for a day or two but very quickly becomes tiresome having to stir the gearbox up all the time, getting blown from the lights by a Transit 'hang on mate, I just need to get it going a bit first....'

Boost control MAY be doable by borrowing an output that you can live without. Something like the tank vent PWM output may possibly be re-configurable as a boost duty output, but saying that if you select your turbo and your wastegate rate and preload suitably you probably wouldn't need ECU boost control anyway.

[Chipwizards]

Chip wizards if you wernt 3+ hours away from me I'm sure I would of contacted you for mapping,would of loved to have it using only stock ecu. out of intrest what size injectors would you of used ? And have you had good results from the 8v with a small turbo with the stock ecu? What is your limit with stock internals regarding boost ?
Martin I would do mate but I want to no it will at least leave the dyno In a clean statel.
But yes vtr lumps are not the dearest.
In regards to what John said earlier on about peak power I will upload another example graph to show how tight the dyno is with its numbers

Only three hours? Local then...

Injector size requirements would depend on several things, such as whether you have a regulator on the rail with a return or not. If not, it does limit how much boost you can run but with the boost that you are likely to want it wouldn't be a problem.

If your car is for daily road use, don't ruin it by fitting a turbo that is too big. Not getting boost until 4000 rpm is great for a day or two but very quickly becomes tiresome having to stir the gearbox up all the time, getting blown from the lights by a Transit 'hang on mate, I just need to get it going a bit first....'

Boost control MAY be doable by borrowing an output that you can live without. Something like the tank vent PWM output may possibly be re-configurable as a boost duty output, but saying that if you select your turbo and your wastegate rate and preload suitably you probably wouldn't need ECU boost control anyway.

[henryvtr]

Welshpug, the car is rapid on road , you may not think its good power but it's certainly more than when it was n/a.
Saxoman I do have a intercooler yes as stated before , only small mind
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/CDCAE4AC-C2ED-4D70-99BE-52F32C12BA58_zpsqjrfbx1i.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CDCAE4AC-C2ED-4D70-99BE-52F32C12BA58_zpsqjrfbx1i.jpg.html)

[henryvtr]

chipwizards when I was looking for you a few years ago you were impossible to find. I honestly didn't think you were still doing it, you defo need a website or something mate so people can see what your about. Out of intrest then how much would you of charged and how long would you of needed the car ?

[MartinObviously]

chipwizards when I was looking for you a few years ago you were impossible to find. I honestly didn't think you were still doing it, you defo need a website or something mate so people can see what your about. Out of intrest then how much would you of charged and how long would you of needed the car ?

He has a facebook page these days :homme: "Chipwizards"

[MartinObviously]

Welshpug, the car is rapid on road , you may not think its good power but it's certainly more than when it was n/a.
Saxoman I do have a intercooler yes as stated before , only small mind
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/CDCAE4AC-C2ED-4D70-99BE-52F32C12BA58_zpsqjrfbx1i.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CDCAE4AC-C2ED-4D70-99BE-52F32C12BA58_zpsqjrfbx1i.jpg.html)

That does look neat, when i first asked for pictures I was expecting to see some form of terrible mess :P

[henryvtr]

Thanks Martin , I collected parts over the years as it has been my trackcar for about 8/9 years now, me and a pal managed to do it all over a weekend, some long days but it got there. When our mates would pop round to have a look they would ask if it's forged so we blessed 1 piston with the words wossnor lol, like a word of encouragement to the piston as we think it's gonna be the hottest one lol
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/4B659195-6642-46BB-B25B-D5686EFAFA38_zps6k04w2qu.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/4B659195-6642-46BB-B25B-D5686EFAFA38_zps6k04w2qu.jpg.html)

[henryvtr]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/7ABE9C0E-10F1-46E7-8014-90681E508173_zpsxitb24ui.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/7ABE9C0E-10F1-46E7-8014-90681E508173_zpsxitb24ui.jpg.html)

[henryvtr]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/46964659-83A1-42C4-A32E-6E314B790B8F_zpsolgalyib.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/46964659-83A1-42C4-A32E-6E314B790B8F_zpsolgalyib.jpg.html)
Bumper didn't need cutting so the intercooler is stealth

[henryvtr]

Should be able to update you all next week, fitted a new actuator and going to be setup end of next week, found on ci tunings site somewhere that pistons are needed after 10psi so let's find out lol. Actuator set at 0.7 bar/10psi.

[AdamH]

7-8psi is usually the limit people aim for before going forge.. around 180-190bhp..

at 190bhp I had clutch slip on a valeo clutch so its not just the pistons / rods / head gasket that you will risk its also the gearbox / clutch

what controller are you using to control the boost?

[gti180craig]

What clutch are u running Adam as I've got slip already on my stage 2 cg clutch also where did u get your actuator from Henry ??

[AdamH]

standard valeo clutch which has covered 5000 miles

when it was first fitted I had clutch slip but after it "wore" in so to speak it seems fine...

I don't hoon it in first gear which helps but anymore I think id have to go for a paddle clutch

[axsaxoman]

torque is what kills clutchs and making power so low in rpm --will mean more torque --so no suprise the std type clutch is slipping

[henryvtr]

Craig the new actuator was from turbo rebuild.com, it's a 9psi, well suppose to be anyway. Had it in dyno yesterday and was making about 0.9 bar instead of 9psi oops lol. To much preload. Slackened it off and found 9/10 psi. It's now making 210ftlb and 178/179hp with a flat boost of 9/10psi. Il get a graph up later as I'm going to pop back there and get one lol.
Adam I was using the det3 piggyback unit as boost control as it has very good boost tables apparently but now just actuator pressure. From 2 psi increase its gained nearly 20hp and 12ftlb . Pretty happy............ For now

[henryvtr]

I am using standard Valeo clutch also , was new about 1000 mile before the turbo went on. Holding so far lol

[axsaxoman]

210 of torque -- it won,t last

[welshpug]

wonder what will let go first, clutch or gearbox or driveshaft :D

[henryvtr]

I've got ad08r on and it's gripping well lol, granted the clutch won't last forever but about 1000miles in its not bad, the old boy who mapped it showed me the launch control twice on the road and it took that well lol I have yet the balls to do it.

[henryvtr]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/6C021575-9190-4240-B578-632701BDD434_zpskx7ohyvk.png (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/6C021575-9190-4240-B578-632701BDD434_zpskx7ohyvk.png.html)

[henryvtr]

Black is afr, blue boost, don't no what green line is, 212ftlb and 179hp, not bad for a diesal engine lol. 4.5k to 6k holding 170ish, afr is safe as houses apparently. Pretty chuffed @9psi flat.

[Synister]

Don't think anyone has asked yet, but what engine is this on?

[henryvtr]

Silver top 8v , 90hp roller rocker, crossover year as have 106 rallye Inlet fitted.

[Synister]

That's a fuck-load of torque. It's bound to be shit trying to get grip in the first 3 gears. You'd definately benefit from a change of cam.

[welshpug]

no, that isn't a lot of torque, stock fiesta st makes more than that.

[axsaxoman]

no, that isn't a lot of torque, stock fiesta st makes more than that.

maybe but not 1587cc or 8v and i would guess the ecu stops it getting lots of wheelspin

[welshpug]

indeed its a 1596cc 16v.

2018 model will be a 1.5.

[Chipwizards]

But probably weighs 30% more.... and definitely has gear-dependent torque limiting.

[Synister]

no, that isn't a lot of torque, stock fiesta st makes more than that.

Stock Golf R and dozens other turbo'd FF cars makes more than that too. What's your point? Going by your posts on here, you sound like you'd be great craic at parties.

The VTR is what? ~100lb/ft stock? This is double that. Going off previous dyno results for other (basic) turbo'd 8v's and 16v's, 212lb/ft @ 3650RPM is a stong figure.

[henryvtr]

Ad08r are a very good tyre, 1st you will struggle but 2nd whether your spinning or not pulls like a beast, 3rd is sweet.
Regarding the fiesta st I have come across a few so far, all have been shown French rear end lol.
Car must weight no more than 820-840kg, stripped with polycarbonate Windows , half dash and at minute only one corbeau f/g seat that weights 6kg lol

[AdamH]

not sure why there was bitterness but yes its a good result from an 8v.. and jfi my 16v has 195ftlb and easily pulls from my st180 and my friends who are running mp215.

Henry if you have a scrapyard near you ask them if you can use the weight bridge

[henryvtr]

865kg with quarter tank half stripped, was last time on weightbridge a few years back, And a lot has changed since like I said above so a conservative estimate of 840 is fair lol. Will one day weight it again and hopefully not for scrap

[henryvtr]

Put some times in today, best I got was 14.13 @97.33 mph, Santa pod.
Not bad at all, clutch is still sweet lol

[AdamH]

sounds good dude, were did you take it? saw some pics on facebook earlier but cant find them now ^_^

[henryvtr]

Santapod pal, it's the only place you can garantee it , no funny timing and good strip, in my eyes it only counts at Santa pod lol
Did consistent 14.1-14.2. So I no with a good start I could perhaps pinch a 13.9 but it would be hard to do twice lol

[AdamH]

And the clutch sorted ;)

[henryvtr]

Clutch and box are still good, done north Weald drag strip last week , only got 1 run gave up as was busy, then Santa pod this sat were I got 6 runs in and let my pal have a couple runs aswell he went 1st to 4th gear styled it out and still done high 16s lol. He launched we'll both times as he just held his foot flat lol.
I'm might start looking for a vts box as backup tho (vtr box at mo) as I'm not expecting it to take punishment like that forever

[welshpug]

a good set of ratios and less weight will do wonders, look up DaveP's rallye, 12.7 with less than 200 bhp n-a.

i think it was near the 750 kilo mark at the time, maybe less, and a gripper dog box, almost on the limiter in 5th at the end of the 1/4 :D

[MartinObviously]

a good set of ratios and less weight will do wonders, look up DaveP's rallye, 12.7 with less than 200 bhp n-a.

i think it was near the 750 kilo mark at the time, maybe less, and a gripper dog box, almost on the limiter in 5th at the end of the 1/4 :D

He's gone even faster than that! it's broken into high 11 with it once I'm sure.

[henryvtr]

I have seen the car in question before, his gearbox prob cost as much as my build lol, hill climb or sprint car isn't it? I remember seeing pics of the interior, holes everywere lol propa bit of kit that.
A fella had a 106 at pod that Saturday which had a Honda turbo lump, words cannot discribe the build quality honestly amazed, runs 600hp on high boost lol , he had it on a lower boost setting and could even find grip with track tyres , was spinning over the line at 125mph and that was just the speed from a little squirt in 4th on the last 1/8th. I saw him do a 13 something as he couldn't get off the line at all really so shows how well davep car is setup if he bangs out 11s

[MartinObviously]

I have seen the car in question before, his gearbox prob cost as much as my build lol, hill climb or sprint car isn't it? I remember seeing pics of the interior, holes everywere lol propa bit of kit that.
A fella had a 106 at pod that Saturday which had a Honda turbo lump, words cannot discribe the build quality honestly amazed, runs 600hp on high boost lol , he had it on a lower boost setting and could even find grip with track tyres , was spinning over the line at 125mph and that was just the speed from a little squirt in 4th on the last 1/8th. I saw him do a 13 something as he couldn't get off the line at all really so shows how well davep car is setup if he bangs out 11s

It's custom ratios. Tops out around 120mph.

Still H pattern too!! ;)

[axsaxoman]

It's custom ratios. Tops out around 120mph.

Still H pattern too!! ;)

just highlights the problems with turbo,s and front wheel drive --like the advert says "power is nothing without control "
that car boviously needs some proper boost control and hwy its better to have the power coming on smoothly and progressivly and not a big lump of it at low rpm like a switch ,cos once traction is broken its very hard to get it back .
always amazes me why people think fitting a light flywheel is good idea to a boosted car --just makes it pick up even quicker when boost comes on

[henryvtr]

The 106 at Santa pod was normally a track car he said. he was fettling with his traction control and launch control on every run, no doubt with abit of practice he would nail it.
It was good to see another frenchy anyway as these cars don't seem to make appearances anymore

[henryvtr]

Update for you all, re introduced the boost solonoid which is mapped via the emu det3, boost slightly increases as you can see in the graph to a peak of about 11psi, trying to be nice to the clutch but I really don't think it will last much longer lol, either way I have two maps so to speak as I can revert back to actuator pressure of the 9psi, 221ftlb and 197hp, not bad if I do say so myself
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y492/henryfox140/Mobile%20Uploads/FB908D6A-1A9E-4006-BAFC-5C60008EED0A_zpsptzpggny.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/henryfox140/media/Mobile%20Uploads/FB908D6A-1A9E-4006-BAFC-5C60008EED0A_zpsptzpggny.jpg.html)

[Chipwizards]

Why the later spool? Lower EGT (maybe it's richer) or rpm/speed measurement different perhaps?

[henryvtr]

The later spool ? If you mean why it creeps up slightly that is from the solonoid controlling it via the piggyback unit, I didn't want 11psi as a flat hit because I no the clutch will not take it. So instead the solonoid increases boost per 1k rpm ever so slightly to aid my mid range to top end without dramatically increasing bottom end power as this is were I'm told you can kill engines, ie big spike coming into boost. If I ran 11psi flat I'm sure it would break the 200 mark and the torque will be a little savage to say the least, although the fella who done it said that's a easy 200hp on the road as it is now. it was 25+ degrees on both the last mapping sessions so it's done well with the heat also

[Chipwizards]

Spool, the uphill bit as the boost is building.
Boost and torque (and therefor power) are all less then before.

[henryvtr]

I don't no for sure but the mappers breif was, no more torque below the old peak to presserve clutch, perhaps he delayed it slightly or perhaps it was a result of re plumbing in the solonoid, maybe even be due to 25+ Degree heat on day. Didn't want to run 11psi flat as the torque will eat the clutch instantly we suspect.

[Chipwizards]

But you do have more peak torque.... Where it occurs won't matter to the clutch.

[henryvtr]

yes this is true and the clutch will probably let me no soon it's not happy,
the idea of avoiding low rpm boost levels/spike was in aid of looking after the engine, was told that this is a killer on many components clutch included.
This setup has a lot more to give but at what point will I find the weak link?

[AdamH]

at the power you are running now the clutch will 100% be the first part... followed close my the MA box / driveshaft (unless driven with sympathy)

Especially between 2000 - 3500 rpm!

[henryvtr]

Well guys I found the limit of the standard clutch lol, slipped in 4th then 5th.
Looking for a paddle of some sort, hopefully In next few weeks be back on road.
But whilst I was thinking of more boost I saw dp engeering project cars have gone 300hp+ on standard guts with the right comp, I no there 16s but is my bottom end not the same? Granted I won't see them figures but I reackon 220-240 is achievable with 14-16 psi.
Got myself a spare lump Which is identical and under 70k, knowing I have a spare is almost certainly going to lead to more boost lol

[gti180craig]

I'm sure blackie achieved 220 on standard internals with a comp plate

[Chipwizards]

I'm sure blackie achieved 220 on standard internals with a comp plate

And how long did it last?

[gti180craig]

And how long did it last?

No idea lmao think he ran into oil pump problems eventually which killed his engine however don't Quote me on that I could be talking rubbish ha ha

[henryvtr]

Dp cars write up says it was tested over a year and few track days at 400+ at wheels on standard guts, broke gearboxs along the way but as to be expected lol

[axsaxoman]

Dp cars write up says it was tested over a year and few track days at 400+ at wheels on standard guts, broke gearboxs along the way but as to be expected lol

absolute BOLLOCKS -that all I have to say --If it is the man I think it is, he claimed std clutch ran up to 300
400+@wheels = 450+ @flywheel -

[jack-s5axy]

I thought blackies car broke a retainer . mk2 ones witch are weaker early retainers are much thicker

Maybe getting mixed up with someone else tho ...

[henryvtr]

don't get me wrong 400+ does seem like it's taking the mickey but I'm only looking to max my turbo so will be limited to 230/240hp, worth a try tho in my opinion lol, as for the clutch well ........ slipped the minute it felt 200hp lol.
Gmc what clutch offerings would you recommend? I did want to avoid paddle but I think I'm going to have to use one. Thanks

[axsaxoman]

you have little choice if you want it to last ,the problem is the diameter of the saxo unit @180mm--
a paddle with sprung center is very little difference in use than an organic and whilst a 4 paddle is a bit cheaper its life is shorter than a 6 paddle due to less friction area

[henryvtr]

I'm confused as I'm pretty certain vts and vtr use a 200mm clutch? So the offering from helix with the 6 paddle or alike is probably best ? Any chance you can strike me a deal on one as they ain't cheap lol

[AdamH]

Yes the VTR and VTS use a 200mm clutch

- 3 X 2 bolt holes = pre 2000
- Evenly spaced bolt holes = post 2000

Obviously there are some crossover ones which don't apply to the above.

[axsaxoman]

yes --old age,--you are right the are 200m ,but still quite small for the torque
If going to be3 that gives other options --but at more expense

[henryvtr]

Been a while but I'd thought I should update, I have received my clutch form gmc sometime ago now, big thank you to john, it took a while but came in the end lol. Now I just have to find a free weekend to fit it and give a little tlc, I went with the helix 6 paddle.
So hopefully in the new year I will fit it and go back for more boost lol. 220-240hp/ftlb is my aim on stock guts. wish me luck

[sri_130]

Been a while but I'd thought I should update, I have received my clutch form gmc sometime ago now, big thank you to john, it took a while but came in the end lol. Now I just have to find a free weekend to fit it and give a little tlc, I went with the helix 6 paddle.
So hopefully in the new year I will fit it and go back for more boost lol. 220-240hp/ftlb is my aim on stock guts. wish me luck

Good luck. get some pics up.