C2 vts head onto saxo vts.....?

[stebbs1471]

what amount of work would be needed, costs? anywhere where it can be done? thanks Tom

[lavo-vts]

believe it pretty straight forward mate think they r basicially same bottom end

[stebbs1471]

heard that you have to have some of the holes redrilled and aligned? was just wondering if anyone has had it done?

[boz]

try SSC mate, i know a few peeps have done it on there, i think the ports are a bit larger on them, they have a better inlet manifold too :)

[boz]

i know that Ratty did it on here but im not sure if he comes on here anymore since he got his new beast :)

[stebbs1471]

ssc all seem a bit big headed and love theirselves, stick to here if i can. did a search on there and didnt return much. thanks guys

[Sean]

saxo ecu and inlet have to be used as it wont work using c2 inlet. the head has to be redrilled to accept the saxo inlet as the holes dont line up, you also need to work out the correct thickness of headgasket to make sure you keep the correct compression ratio.

[stebbs1471]

so basically this will give you bigger valves/ports, and you need to have the inlet holes redrilled and different head gasket? do all the insides line up ok? exhaust bores on the outlet line up?

[Sean]

as far as i'm aware the exhaust side is fine (anyone feel free to correct me) and the 'insides' line up fine (pistons, cams etc). the reasons for fitting the c2 head are bigger valves, more efficient cooling and a better breather system.

[stebbs1471]

sweet, will have to look into this then, just need some costs

[Sean]

speak to tam (axo16v) on ssc, if he doesnt have a c2 vts head in then i'm sure he could sort you out with the pug equivalent (which he's running on his supercharged axo vts).

[stebbs1471]

phoned him the other day dude, he`s going to speak to me after new years, cheers sean

[Cupra-Craig]

One big thing u forgot wat about the bigger valves hitting the pistons????

U need:
Pistons pocketing to take bigger valves unless u are running standard cams an if u are they no point in changing to c2vts head as no benifit unless using cams etc.
Drill an retap inlet side think theres four to done use saxo head gasket.

So if use cams then need pistons pocketing but if not no need standard head will be fine. Alot of money for nothing

[Sean]

if he's running a saxo vts bottom end then he has pocketed pistons as standard, and the valves won't hit the pistons as it's the surface area of the valves which is bigger which won't make any difference to them hitting the pistons or not.
and i'm led to believe you can't just use a saxo head gasket as the compression ratio will be wrong.

[boz]

buy some bigger valves for the vts head lol :)

i know a lad around our way had c2 vts head on his vts and he ended up having problems with the cams he was running etc. ended up getting rid of it.

but i know ratty had that set up on his monster turbo vts, never got round to asking him about it.

i can maybe get in touch if you want????? if he dosnt know, not many people will lol

[williamsvts]

boz - falcus has the full c2 engien in with saxo 708 cams, thats why he had problems. it was fine with 270s.

it will fit on and you can use the c2 inlet but you will loose compression with the c2 head on the saxo block. it didnt matter with rattys car coz his was boosted.

[Cupra-Craig]

OK then no probs i'l not post what i was told by matt at qep when i was going this way but told me not to bother!

Good luck

[Cupra-Craig]

need to use the vts t/b tho williams

[stebbs1471]

seems like a lot of work, think i`ll just get my head repaired, 2 of the bolt holes decided to dethread themselves, get a quote on tuesday, if its a head off job then i`ll cam it aswel, depending on the cost of repair i`ll get a new head, it`ll either be vts/106gti or C2vts, which head gasket would you use? only other way to increase compression is pistons right? bout £400ish for the pistons, 300ish for cams(708`s or pt51`s) , 160 for followers, 450ish for remap, 60ish for all gaskets, and xxx for C2 head, or xxx for standard vts/106gti head-which i`d probably have some work done on while its off anyways, get everything done right and proper at once.

[williamsvts]

god - yeah you use vts tb but can use it on c2 inlet/plenim. did matt tell you that you would need shitloads took off the head to get the correct compression?

[Cupra-Craig]

Didnt go into it as from wat he was telling me with wat ive wrote already said there was no point as it costs a shit load an loads of work an people who he has done it for as had trouble with them

[bullit]

god your right, to much money, problems and pistons do need pocketen or forgies

[stebbs1471]

lol stick with my the standard head then and have some work done me thinks. cheers guys

[bullit]

qep is your place

[stebbs1471]

how much is a bigger valved head, with all the stuff i`d need? coz if i`m getting 708`s may aswell talk to them bout the head aswel? are we still all good using the standard ecu from my vts with a remap at jamspeed?

[williamsvts]

heads are about £600 exchange. dont just get the biggest valve head you can as you can 'over port' your head, if you know what i mean. tell them what spec you have/will have and they will tell you what spec head will be best.
and with the remap, it will be cheaper to go to chipwizards, as its wayne from chipwizrads that does the marmaladesport remaps and then they add there cut off it on.

[stebbs1471]

where is chip wizards? i thought jamspeed were repuatable? i understand, too bigger ports will let too much in and not cause optimal combustion.

[bullit]

as above you wont need massive headwork if your cams arent gonna be really wild, ie not point porting more if the cams lift isnt gonna use it. so best give them a ring and get a price. its jamsport aswell :p.

[williamsvts]

jamsport is good. but its the bloke that owns chipwizards that does the mapping fopr jamsport.
so if you go to jamsport, you pay wayne for mapping + jamsports fee on top. if you go direct to chipwizards then you just pay wayne for mapping. chipwizards is in rochdale near manchester.

[stebbs1471]

how bad would the car be to drive with the 708`s set at standard timing? would have quite a drive to manchester thats all. whereas northampton isnt all that far.

[williamsvts]

standard timing it wont idle. but you can alter it to idle fine. i drove mine on 708s for 6 month before i got it mapped. retard the inlet a bit and advance the exhaust a bit and it will be fine :P

[stebbs1471]

think i could manage that, just didnt want it to run lean and cook the head that was all, how much is a chipwizards remap then?

[bullit]

about 450.ive also been running unmapped for months, so no worrys there

[stebbs1471]

oh ok, well i`ve read loads of good things about wayne, so will have to have his services, now the choice will still remain between 708`s and pt51`s ha ha, i`ll also be aquiring a raceland as my gmc came to a nasty end with the shires speedbump at leicester ha ha

[williamsvts]

yeah its 450. i done trackdays and shit while unmapped. no problems at all.

[williamsvts]

my opinion of racelands is shit steel. thin as fuck. i woudl stick with the GMC.

[stebbs1471]

well need a replacement as i`m back to standard at the min and its gutless, need a pretty sturdy one as mine seems to kiss speedbumps, thats why i want a 4-2-1 this time sits slightly higher i hear.

[bullit]

go supersprint then, i have a miltek

[stebbs1471]

cheers matey, if gmc did a stainless 4-2-1 for the vts i`d be very interested! want a stainless as might need it repaired few times ha ha

[williamsvts]

how can you not repair a mild steel 1??

supersprints are raceland but with a huge price tag.

[stebbs1471]

i`m guessing if i go for 708`s i want a 4-1 if i go for pt51`s i want a 4-2-1 right? as 708`s dont kick in till later in the rev range and the 4-2-1 wont be able to shift gasses out quick enough with 708`s

[stebbs1471]

i can, my gmc has been repaired a couple of times, but due to heavy rusting it burns through very easily, whereas a stainless wont rust so repairing is far easier and sucessful.

[lavo-vts]

the power zone, lancashire, 01282 724427. they did mine 3yrs ago n u know what mine shifts like, think it was bout 700quid n they collected the car n dropped it off when it was done

[stebbs1471]

any hwere you recon i could get cams, followers, manifold (and remap) that might knock me some dollar off for buying it all?

[stebbs1471]

was that cams and remap lloyd? what cams? yeah yours is awesome!

[lavo-vts]

not sure tom,just lookin at the invoice n it says tuning kit a consist of modified head set of camshafts, headgasket n bolts. lookin at the part number think the cams r kent pt50e

[lavo-vts]

dont buy vernier pulleys vts's have them from new

[williamsvts]

pt50 are very mild cams.

[stebbs1471]

think i want the pt51`s, but could give them a ring mate and have a nice talk, yours shifts matey, yours made 157, is that with standard ecu remap?

[lavo-vts]

pt50 are very mild cams.

u wouldnt know it by how mine behaves, revs out in 5th gear. rips tyres to pieces n kills standard vts's all day long

[stebbs1471]

want the pt51`s i think, and 4-2-1, but how much more expensive is the full pt51 kit over the 708 kit? i know the piper 285 kit is around 600.

[lavo-vts]

think i want the pt51`s, but could give them a ring mate and have a nice talk, yours shifts matey, yours made 157, is that with standard ecu remap?

no mate im just lookin for the company who supplied the ecu cant find the invoice.

[stebbs1471]

lloyds sax is sweet, got any graphs for her lloyd?

[stebbs1471]

ok, tell me how much for ecu remap and cams...coz that company sounds sweet if they got 157 out of pt50s i wonder what they can get out of pt51

[lavo-vts]

just looked pt50 is a kent kit which contains the sport cam which i believe is the pt51

[stebbs1471]

sweet, will have to talk to the guys who did yours, sound awesome to me, will talk to them next week sure they can sort me out matey. just need to find out if they can remap standard ecu or what prices they charge for ecu`s

[lavo-vts]

ok, tell me how much for ecu remap and cams...coz that company sounds sweet if they got 157 out of pt50s i wonder what they can get out of pt51

the 157 is just what im goin on from the previous owner who rr it but didnt have a print out cause he did it at his collage in his lunch brake. but to be fair i think ur gonna be lookin bout 900 quid for everythin.

[lavo-vts]

sweet, will have to talk to the guys who did yours, sound awesome to me, will talk to them next week sure they can sort me out matey. just need to find out if they can remap standard ecu or what prices they charge for ecu`s

they ave been going for years mate cant find a website they used to ave a ad in mini world 5yrs ago imagine me in a mini lol

[stebbs1471]

sounds good to me lloyd, will have to give them a ring, see what they can sort me out with :P

[lavo-vts]

well mine ave been in 3yrs now n covered bout 65'000 miles n they r still sweet, even though i cant get her to idle 100% like it should. at least it idles for more than 2mins now though

[stebbs1471]

mine dont like idling anyways, lumpy as ever even without cams ha ha, bit better nows its back to the standard mani, cheers mate i`ll deffo get in touch with those guys!

[lavo-vts]

glad i could help u bud, might look into some new cams soon anyway thats if the old girl can take anymore power. im only assumin that the ecu has been remapped cause i know it has been re built at same time as the cams was done no info as to what it was done for though

[stebbs1471]

ok buddy, if its making 157 its been remapped, wonder what ecu you have, you`ll have to pop the bonnet and see if its on standard ecu
cheers buddy, i`m off to get pi**ed now happy new year to all you guys and many many thanks for all your help! you guys are awesome!!! Tom

[lavo-vts]

pissed, good idea

[lavo-vts]

roadrunner motorsport in notts supply kent cams allong with other stuff there r really good n know there stuff ive had quite afew things off them in the past.01159 781173 good on price+ they do mail order

[williamsvts]

pt50 and pt51 are different spec cams. no way can pt50s make 157hp either.

[stebbs1471]

i`ll be going pt51`s and 4-2-1 i guess, pt 50`s are mild right? sort of 145bhp?

[williamsvts]

probably lo 140s imo, not worth getting.

[stebbs1471]

well still pulled the pants down on my vts whatever hp he`s running, and when we went for quick test drive 3 up it was still quicker than mine, but i want pt51`s

[lavo-vts]

pt50 and pt51 are different spec cams. no way can pt50s make 157hp either.

well thats funny cause mine do, so i guess we have another one who reads shit n pops it about everywhere. tell me they dont when u got proof that my car aint runnin 157 u fool. until then keep ur bollocks in ur mouth

[lavo-vts]

probably lo 140s imo, not worth getting.

the pt50 kit gives 22hp extra, then there is my re-map and all the head work that was done + the little bits here n there from my little mods. get ur facts straight b4 u try bad mouthin my motor n then u wont look like a complete tit

[Ratty]

pt50s wont give you didly squat they are pretty much like standard cams but all they do is shift the power band, pt51s are the minumum required to get over 150.

[lavo-vts]

pt50s wont give you didly squat they are pretty much like standard cams but all they do is shift the power band, pt51s are the minumum required to get over 150.

pt50k gives 22hp more. think thats more than didly squat, visit the kent cams web site before sayin anythin u need to back up what ur sayin cause as i see it u dont know what ur talkin about mate

[Sean]

if you think cams give 22bhp before a remap then you're living in a dreamworld. try actually doing research and gaining some knowledge instead of reading what a company claims on their website (it's called a 'sales pitch').
and type english not text talk, you're not on your mobile.

[Ratty]

no they dont, any tuner will tell you this, they are a standard cam spec with the power band shifted, Kent etc are a sales orintated company, how many cams would they sell if they said it give you an extra 5bhp up top but you loose some low down, thats £300 please? and they also say *with other mods (what other mods???) without doing things like improving air flow, altering ECU settings, head work etc you will not gain very much with any cam even PT53s, if all you did was rebated the pistons to make them work it would drive like dog and more than likely wouldnt idle, if you want to stick to your sales and pub talk of 20+ break with cams thats fine, but its all bollox and in reality you will not get 20bhp increase from a set of cams let alone pt50s

[lavo-vts]

if you think cams give 22bhp before a remap then you're living in a dreamworld. try actually doing research and gaining some knowledge instead of reading what a company claims on their website (it's called a 'sales pitch').
and type english not text talk, you're not on your mobile.

research would tell u that pt50k is infact a cam kit not cams talk about research, when a company tells u a sales pitch then u fit there product n rr it n what they tol me in the first place is right how is that lyin?

[Sean]

research would tell u that pt50k is infact a cam kit not cams talk about research, when a company tells u a sales pitch then u fit there product n rr it n what they tol me in the first place is right how is that lyin?

ah so it's not just the cams on their own that give the 22bhp, the addition of uprated springs, vernier pulleys and some cam lube give you the extra power then.... I stand corrected :)
one phrase springs to mind - *pub talk* :)

[lavo-vts]

no they dont, any tuner will tell you this, they are a standard cam spec with the power band shifted, Kent etc are a sales orintated company, how many cams would they sell if they said it give you an extra 5bhp up top but you loose some low down, thats £300 please? and they also say *with other mods (what other mods???) without doing things like improving air flow, altering ECU settings, head work etc you will not gain very much with any cam even PT53s, if all you did was rebated the pistons to make them work it would drive like dog and more than likely wouldnt idle, if you want to stick to your sales and pub talk of 20+ break with cams thats fine, but its all bollox and in reality you will not get 20bhp increase from a set of cams let alone pt50s

so when my car was rr n it came back as 157hp they was lyin aswell? or is that not in reality aswell, or maybe i had it done in a pub

[Sean]

so when my car was rr n it came back as 157hp they was lyin aswell? or is that not in reality aswell, or maybe i had it done in a pub

only place people take notice of @flywheel figures is in the pub so maybe the landlord of your local mapped it.

[lavo-vts]

ah so it's not just the cams on their own that give the 22bhp, the addition of uprated springs, vernier pulleys and some cam lube give you the extra power then.... I stand corrected :)
one phrase springs to mind - *pub talk* :)

stand where ever u like pal the fact of the matter is my car is runnin the power it is with the pt50's so u can try n look as good as u want but the truth is there its 157hp n thats that

[Cupra-Craig]

All i can say is the rr gives @wheel figure @flywheel is a guess an yours is a flywheel figure.

[hesslevtr]

stand where ever u like pal the fact of the matter is my car is runnin the power it is with the pt50's so u can try n look as good as u want but the truth is there its 157hp n thats that

my car got rr and got 126bhp at the fly

thats from a filter and cat back exhaust on a VTR

doesnt mean it has it

the rolling road was way out maybe yours was to

[lavo-vts]

All i can say is the rr gives @wheel figure @flywheel is a guess an yours is a flywheel figure.

all the rr was used for was to set the car up, the hp figure was given because that is what was needed at the time. wasnt inerested in the bhp at the.

[lavo-vts]

my car got rr and got 126bhp at the fly

thats from a filter and cat back exhaust on a VTR

doesnt mean it has it

the rolling road was way out maybe yours was to

thats the fly wheel readin, which is what the original citreon state r measured from this is why i asked for that readin to be givin to me so i could compare it better, as i didnt know the original bhp that the vts came with from new

[Sean]

right i think we can end this guff here, seeing as the original question *cough cough* has been answered sufficiently.