How difficult would it be??

[Karl]

to do away with the ECU of a Saxo, and the injection system and make it run by Carbueretor?

My friend is into his Mini's and stuff, but he does like the Saxo scene and thinks that a Carbed VT* would be a crazy different thing to do.

[woodsy]

very difficult id say as the rest of the engine especially the sensors needs the ecu to run it ... crank angle sensor, lamdba sensor

[KamRacing]

not difficult but I can't see why you'd ever want to. You'll never pass an emissions test with carbs.

The sensors needed by the ECU would be mostly redundant in a carb setup. I'd go throttle bodies personally.

[VTS_16v_Boy]

Yep emissions are the big problem, I had a 998cc Metro with uprated MGmetro SU Carb, different profile needle, Water heated inlet manifold, long centre branch manifold and twin box performance exhaust and had it all rolling road tuned - 40bhp Boo Yer - but when it came to the mot the mot station detuned the carb to get it through the mot and had too then retune it as it would have been a pig to drive.

Webber do modern day Alpha kits which are more throttle bodies than carbs, but they are sill expensive!

Injection was a big step up from carbs interms of performance and emission control, only throttle bodies would be seen as a advantage

Go on you know you want em :-)

[mick2404]

Injection was a big step up from carbs interms of performance and emission control

tee hee... find me a 108bhp non turbo, injection mini :)

Carbs do rule, but not on "modern" applications :(

Go on... as he says.... jenvy :D

[Karl]

k guys ill tell him :)

[shaggers_saxvtr]

Do it, its different so I say why not! Sure she would sound sweet too! Twin webber conversion...mmmm :P

[and106gti]

to be honest there is not really any point in doing it

[shaggers_saxvtr]

to be honest there is not really any point in doing it


Why not?

Obviously emissions would be a problem for mot's etc but even so, think it would be an interesting project.

[Scott]

why go backwards? Spend the money going forwards not returning to stone age

[shaggers_saxvtr]

So your'e telling me if you were at a show, or perhaps santa pod and there was a carb'd saxo it wouldnt interest you at all and you would just think...whats the point...waste of money/time...?

[Scott]

Yes im afraid thats exactly what i would think, nothing against doing something new but thats like taking a bugatti veyron and cutting half of the W engine off, just to be different?

[shaggers_saxvtr]

Personally I dont think you can compare a saxo to a Bugatti!

However I totally agree with 'each to their own' opinions etc - and if I had a £2500+ Saxo I wouldnt do it, I do see where you are coming from! If it was to be done, not that carbs is something I plan on doing to a saxo I would have to do it on a cheap one...

Personally I want to throttle body my VTS and know where I can get my hands on some :D:D But carbs was just something knew that I hadnt really thought about on a sax much and personally if I saw one running high bhp etc Id probably be fairly impressed!

[Scott]

dont get me wrong i would still be impressed however it would still be nagging at the back of my mind that better could have been had.

Contact GMC they have a new throttle body system thats meant to be a good bit cheaper than conventional

[shaggers_saxvtr]

Yes I agree better things could have been done witht he time and money it would cost to convert, but it would be interesting IMO! One day maybe one might be done!

I can get hold of throttle bodies to fit my VTS through a friend of a friend...lol

He is selling them because apparantly he bought them for an escort (:S) But they came with instructions and fittings for a GTI/VTS..

I need to see them first and get a spec but I would like in the next year or two to run TB's the gains are awesome and they sound Sweet :D

Thanks - Will contact GMC :y:

[em_sexy106]

try my mini to be...1.4 na runnin on a weber 45 lookin upto 125 bhp and jus as much torque on a push rod engine!

weber all the way!

sorry also...why are people mesionin the ecu to go throug mot when the ecu wouldnt be there? think about it!!

i also think a webber conversion is not as as expensive as everyone is makin it out to be!!!

[Scott]

its not the missing ecu thats the issue its the emissions they would produce on the saxo engine

[em_sexy106]

so how does my mini, old skool fords etc go theough emisions? it still has to be done?

[turbo_dave]

your Mini was not built after 1995 when the UK emissions legislation was significantly tightened. Why do you think Minis had EFI and cats at the end of their lives when carbs are so 'great'?

[em_sexy106]

so for saxo's to be moving on in time really there not!

[em_sexy106]

the late minis were also injection not carb! so that kinda shows that throttle bodies and injection need a cat to slow down emisions!!!

[Scott]

A cat reduces emissions doesnt slow them down??? Carbs are the way backwards not forwards hence why they have been ditched.

No correction for temperature and only being fueled to one key point in the rev range. Cant ever see the reason to go back to carbs

[CampDavid]

Hahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahaa

Scott, you have the patence of a saint.

Right, emmisions. With carbs you need to adjust the fueling manually so that the air/fuel mix is right. This is no where near as precise as a modern injection system as a carb won't use sensors and adapt to air temp etc. Your old mini will pass an MOT because it is tested against emmisions laws from the dark ages, when it was built. These have got stricter over the passed few years to the point where getting a 2001 on Saxo through an MOT on carbs would be a miricle.

A cat doesn't "slow down" exhaust gasses. It uses a catalyst to convert the gasses into something more palitable for the enviroment.

As for carbs being an interesting project? that's like saying you'd be impressed if someone bunged an ICE seup from an '84 Maestro into a VTS or converted it to a 3 wheeler. There is no benifit to it at all. Want to change your inlet? Try a modern, electrical version of carbs, fuel injected throttle body. Availible in indipendant form for the more diserning modder

[em_sexy106]

slowing down is a figure of speech!

so why do people use webers od ford zetec lumps? answer that!?

i bet u can't!

[CampDavid]

Well, actually yes I can. The zetec is a great engine but my understanding of it is that the standard throttle body isn't that hot. Combined with very complex engine electronics it makes a load more sense to junk the whole lot and just go with a cheap solution, i.e. bunging on a set of webber carbs. Emmisions don't matter as they are generally used in kit cars or something pre 1990 (Anglia's, Se7ens, I've seen old fiestas even) and its a lot simpler than shoving on a good ITB setup running stand alone management.

Carbs have there place, and there not on a saxo, being that all Saxo's are 96 -2003 and would therefor have a mare getting through a MOT. The standard VTS inlet (which is the engine that you'd do most serious modification work to) is pretty good anyway. I've seen a few Carb'd 1.4s and the cost and effort is similar to ITBs and the benifits are lower.

Happy?

[CampDavid]

On the flip side, depending on the age of your 106 and the skills availible, a good carb setup may be a smart move to free up some much needed horse power

[em_sexy106]

hang on... did u jus say 'free up some horse power'

oh yes u did

point proven

[Gower67]

Yep emissions are the big problem, I had a 998cc Metro with uprated MGmetro SU Carb, different profile needle, Water heated inlet manifold, long centre branch manifold and twin box performance exhaust and had it all rolling road tuned - 40bhp Boo Yer - but when it came to the mot the mot station detuned the carb to get it through the mot and had too then retune it as it would have been a pig to drive.

Webber do modern day Alpha kits which are more throttle bodies than carbs, but they are sill expensive!

Injection was a big step up from carbs interms of performance and emission control, only throttle bodies would be seen as a advantage

Go on you know you want em :-)

i had my mini r/r and i got 55 bhp at tthe wheels got my carb neddle slimed own on a lathe and had the bodgest home made induction kit ever it was weel quick as well striped to within a inch of it life as well.

[em_sexy106]

they kno carbs all the way!!!

i love it

[djrem]

INJECTION WINS:

An engine's air/fuel ratio must be accurately controlled under all operating conditions to achieve the desired engine performance, emissions, driveability, and fuel economy. Modern EFI systems meter fuel very precisely, and when used together with an Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor ("EGO" or "O2" sensor), they are also very accurate. The advent of digital closed loop fuel control, based on feedback from an O2 sensor, let EFI significantly outperform a carburetor. The two fundamental improvements are:
Reduced response time to rapidly changing inputs, e.g., rapid throttle movements.
Deliver an accurate and equal mass of fuel to each cylinder of the engine, dramatically improving the cylinder-to-cylinder distribution of the engine.

Those two features result in these performance benefits:
Exhaust Emissions
Significantly reduced "engine out" or "feedgas" emissions (the chemical products of engine combustion).
A reduction in the final tailpipe emissions (≈ 99.9%) resulting from the ability to accurately condition the "feedgas" to make the catalytic converter as effective as possible.
General Engine Operation
Smoother function during quick throttle transitions.
Engine starting.
Extreme weather operation.
Reduced maintenance interval.
A slight increase in fuel economy.
Power Output
Fuel injection often produces more power than an equivalent carbureted engine. However, fuel injection alone does not increase maximum engine output. Increased airflow is needed to burn more fuel to generate more heat to generate more output. The combustion process converts the fuel's chemical energy into heat energy, whether the fuel arrived via EFI or via a carburetor. Airflow is often improved with fuel injectors, which are much smaller than a carburetor. Their smaller size allow more design freedom to improve the air's path into the engine. In contrast, a carburetor's mounting options are limited because it is larger, it must be carefully oriented with respect to gravity, and it must be about as far from each of the engine's cylinders. These design constraints generally compromise airflow into the engine.
A carburetor relies on a drag-inducing venturi to create a local air pressure difference, which forces the fuel into the air stream. The flow loss caused by the venturi is small compared to other flow losses in the induction system. In a well-designed carburetor induction system, the venturi is not a significant airflow restriction.
Fuel injection is more likely to increase efficiency than power. When cylinder-to-cylinder fuel distribution is improved (common with EFI), less fuel is needed for the same power output. Engine efficiency is known as the BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption). When cylinder-to-cylinder distribution is less than ideal (and it always is under one condition or another, and worse on carburetor systems), more fuel than necessary is metered to the rich cylinders to provide enough fuel to the lean cylinders. Power output is asymmetrical with respect to air/fuel ratio. In other words, burning extra fuel in the rich cylinders does not reduce power nearly as quickly as burning too little fuel in the lean cylinders. The standard fuel metering compromise is to run the rich cylinders "even richer" than the best air/fuel ratio, to provide enough fuel to the leaner cylinders. The net power output improves with all the cylinders making maximum power. An analogy is painting a wall: one coat of paint may not cover the wall properly; a second coat dramatically improves the appearance of the poorly covered areas, but some paint is wasted on areas that were already well covered.
Deviations from perfect air/fuel distribution, however subtle, affect the emissions, by not letting the combustion events be at the chemically ideal (stoichiometric) air/fuel ratio. Grosser distribution problems eventually begin to reduce efficiency, and the grossest distribution issues finally affect power. Increasingly poorer air/fuel distribution affects emissions, efficiency, and power, in that order.

There are other benefits associated with fuel injection, such as better atomization of the fuel in the intake (constant-choke carburetors have poor atomization at low air speeds, needing modifications such as sequential twin-barrel designs) and better breathing due to eliminating the carburetor's venturi.

Injection systems have evolved significantly since the mid 1980s. Current EFI systems provide an accurate and cost effective method of metering fuel. Emission and subjective performance have steadily improved as modern digital controls came, which is why EFI systems have replaced carburetors in the marketplace.

EFI is becoming more reliable and less expensive through widespread usage. At the same time, carburetors are becoming less available, and more expensive. Even marine applications are adopting EFI as reliability improves. If this trend continues, it is conceivable that virtually all internal combustion engines, including garden equipment and snow throwers, will eventually use EFI.

It should be noted that a carburetor's fuel metering system is a less expensive alternative when there are not strict emission regulations, as in developing countries. EFI will undoubtedly replace carburetors in these nations too if they adopt emission regulations similar to Europe, Japan, and North America.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection

[em_sexy106]

ok...

'Reduced response time'
Is this a good thing...NO

'Reduced maintenance interval'
u dont mod a car and expect it to be practical do you? NO

'A slight increase in fuel economy'
oh whats that...its worse on fuel! lol

'Fuel injection often produces more power than an equivalent carbureted engine. However, fuel injection alone does not increase maximum engine output. Increased airflow is needed to burn more fuel to generate more heat to generate more output'
increased airflow with induction kit...another good £100 down the drain :(

'Fuel injection is more likely to increase efficiency than power'
yes we are talkin power here

'constant-choke carburetors have poor atomization at low air speeds'
it wouldnt be going slow lol

i think carba are still winnin on a performance, trackday and general 'wow' factor
:D

[djrem]

I think youve become confused.
Ive added coments to your post:

ok...

'Reduced response time'
means it is faster

'Reduced maintenance interval'
Injection systems are standard on many cars.
Helps keep noobs out of the bonnet.

'A slight increase in fuel economy'
increased economy means better mileage for your pounds.

'Fuel injection often produces more power than an equivalent carbureted engine. However, fuel injection alone does not increase maximum engine output. Increased airflow is needed to burn more fuel to generate more heat to generate more output'
increased airflow with induction kit...another good £100 down the drain :(
Faster standard than an carb engine. But as you would have guessed, an engine likes to breathe. Carb or no Carb, induction always helps


'Fuel injection is more likely to increase efficiency than power'
yes we are talkin power here
You've misread this aswell. It means that you save money on fuel more than you get an increase in power

'constant-choke carburetors have poor atomization at low air speeds'
it wouldnt be going slow lol
Correct :)

i think carba are still winnin on a performance, trackday and general 'wow' factor
:D
Erm. No.
Injection is:
Faster (put your footdown, you feel the effect quicker)
Safer (They dont clog up as often and need maintence)
Cheaper (An injection system is "intelligent" compared to a carb)

[em_sexy106]

carbs dont like to be force fed air so u wont need an induction kit!
they breath...they do it on there own!

oh yeah sorry i have miss read the other bits but u dont mod a car and expect it to be practical!

carbs would be a laugh and very fast, loud and mean lol

[djrem]

yeah i think you want them for the sake of them.

Id love a Mustang 1967 fastback purely because its that.

If i had it i wouldt care about maintenance, price or fuel economy.
id have a freaking mustang and thats all that counts :)

[em_sexy106]

yeah thats the point.
it would be something different to!
yeah it would take more to maintain but atleast u could do it urself.
manual labour n not a poxy computer to re programme it of whatever!

it would be fun

[vtr_driver]

MMM I can certainly see the appeal of Carbs. With a lot of head work a cam and a set of webber 40's I can imagine you would get some performance increase.

Plus there's the look of them in your engine bay. Especially if your going for a euro look cleaned bay. You can get rid of loads of stuff (mainly electronic gizmo's) when you switch to carbs cleaning up the bay a lot.

[em_sexy106]

yeah it would look so nice.
one dat it might come true lol

[axsaxoman]

don,t know where to start to answer this and all the mis information about carbs .
the simplest way i can put it is this .
fit carbs --spend days +lots of money finding correct jetting and choke sizes -to get it the best you can --then drive it on a day with dif air temp and humidity and it will all be wrong --why ---no water/air temp correcton .
as RAD drops by 3% for every 10degrees in air temp (forgetting humidity for the moment) and so must power ,then the jetting you do one day will be not perfect on a day with dif air temp ..thats why kart +bike racers change jets and chokes depening on the air temp.
that 3% is presuming that you also correct the ignition timing ,but in the real world you won,t ,so its more like a 6-8% drop in power.
with an ecu + t/bodies ,which will give same noise as carbs ,you have water ,air temp and even barometric correction maps to make both ignition and fuelling correct ALL the time ,,you also set it up by mapping posibly 252 spots on the load /rpm curve and because no engine is perfect at all rpms then you fine tune the fuel +ignitin to what the engine wants ,you cannot do this with carbs ,you have to take an average ,so i promise you that although in theroey max power should be same with carbs as t/bodies there will alway be black holes in the load map with carbs .
If you have carbs and have to buy new jets ,chokes and emulsion tubes and pump jets to get it correct ,and it will take 3 times the dyn otime to do it,you will be spending £200 + on these items .
so itsnot even cheaper to use carbs --presuming of course you are going to set-them up to their best--I am old enough to have tuned both and wouldn ,t a crabs as a gift --when people come with crabs on -- i chase them ,as its always the same story goes great on full throttle but it chugs on little cruise and osre on fuel and coughs when cold -- --it costs more to stset webber dcoes/ida /idf,s etc than a an ecu system .
when you have done all that it will never pass an mot for a cat spec car which a saxo is .
use m/cyle t/bodies if you like you can buy them cheap .make a manifold --but use a stand alone ecu system --which if you have a wideband with it --you can setup the fuelling yourself by jsut using a laptop .

carbs are not a viable or cheap option --the only place for carbs is in the bin.

I see you talking about minis --well any serious mini racer --if the regs allow would go injection everytime-- there is a large market for injection systems on classic sports cars now to replace the worh out distributors and wankie carbs -- i would promise a power increase on any car when replacing old system with new ,even in totally std tune ,it will run smoother ,accelerate quicker ,by more fuel efficent --the oil will keep cleaner and engine will last longer.
icould go in to much more detail of the advantages of ecu controlled ignition and fuelling ,but believe me there is no earthly reason to use carbs on any engine if you have a choice

[axsaxoman]

where did anybody get the idea that carbs don,t need or want cold air or that an induction system wouldn,t be an advantage --inlet requirements are the same for both carb and injection cars --the only real dif is the way the fuel is introduced into the inlet ports ,and fuel beingsquirted by an injector and atomised will always give a better mix with the air --open turmpets are not even the ideal situation on injector cars and a crab will suffer more form varying inlet temps than an injection system will due to no air temp correction of fuel.
best std car example i can give is the old polski fiat (1984)which was carb and distributor --mpg apporx 28-32mpg --when it was relaunched in late 90,s --with same 1950,s design engine ,but this time with a single point injection system and electronic coilpack (fom an astra) the government mpg figures were 48mpg and 10bhp more ,and thats with a cat .

[axsaxoman]

carbs dont like to be force fed air so u wont need an induction kit!
they breath...they do it on there own!
only one comment to that ,sorry if it offends
BOLLOCKS.
DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW A CARB WORKS
if they were better F1 cars would have them -- yes i,m getting frustrated --can,t say it loud enough CARBS ARE CRAP in comparison to injection

[em_sexy106]

well that de[ends how well u can set them up so bollocks to u to

[Timc]

hey,
rite been fowwowing this post, an all i can say is, y does everyone think they know everything, how many of u r qualified? have done anything more then fit an air filter etc, so wen someone comes up wit an idea tht has not been done before an would blantantly increase performance do people put the idea down, carbs were fazed out because modern cars needed to be more driver friendly better mpg etc etc, but tht is everything a performance car isnt! yes it would be alot of work but would definatly be worth it!

[em_sexy106]

tim knows it lol

[Karl]

Im all in for seeing this being done..
Dont know why there are so many negative views against a Carb'd Sax, or any modern day car,

would be impressive to see.

however, telling ppl bollocks to you em_sexy106, doesnt help bring your point across does it ;)

[CampDavid]

hey,
rite been fowwowing this post, an all i can say is, y does everyone think they know everything, how many of u r qualified? have done anything more then fit an air filter etc, so wen someone comes up wit an idea tht has not been done before an would blantantly increase performance do people put the idea down, carbs were fazed out because modern cars needed to be more driver friendly better mpg etc etc, but tht is everything a performance car isnt! yes it would be alot of work but would definatly be worth it!

AXSAXOMAN has only spent around 30 years tuning road and race cars. Check http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/ for details.

While its possible to argue this point till the cows come home but GMC are pretty much unquestionably the best qualified people in the UK when it comes to getting air into and out of a TU block

[CampDavid]

hang on... did u jus say 'free up some horse power'

oh yes u did

point proven

It may help on your 1.1 as the inlet on the 1.1 is a touch wank IIRC.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

People need to stop being so rediculously bitchy on this forum....not naming any names.

I think everyone will fine it all comes down to the 3 letters...IMO - Its all about opinions...

[shaggers_saxvtr]

Is this an arguement, or general interest in something being done...it can be done and we all know that but in some cases it may not be worth it - some are for it, some against it... Personally I would be very interested in seeing one thats been done.

[CampDavid]

People need to stop being so rediculously bitchy on this forum....not naming any names.

I think everyone will fine it all comes down to the 3 letters...IMO - Its all about opinions...

The problem occurs when people start forcefully trying to tell you that black is white and white is black.

This is a dangerous topic, should anyone try and set up a VTS on carbs they'd find that they wouldn't be able to get through an MOT again for a start and they'd most likely suffer a drop in full economy and performance.

I think what's mostly annoyed axsaxoman here is that this sort of bullshit needlessly ruins all of the good information that tuners are putting out there

[Karl]

yep; to be fair, i dont know anything about engines or mechanics etc.

Just put simply.

F1 cars are the daddy of tracks, they'd be carb'd if carbs were better and were best for performance. that should be enough to tell you.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

The problem occurs when people start forcefully trying to tell you that black is white and white is black.

This is a dangerous topic, should anyone try and set up a VTS on carbs they'd find that they wouldn't be able to get through an MOT again for a start and they'd most likely suffer a drop in full economy and performance.

I think what's mostly annoyed axsaxoman here is that this sort of bullshit needlessly ruins all of the good information that tuners are putting out there

I understand what you are saying, and nobody is disputing your knowledge or axsaxomans knowledge. I persoanlly want to TB an S lump, tune it etc and then dump it in my R in a year or so..

But em_sexy106 is into minis and the initial questions was abou carbing an R, not an S i believe.

Yes there are many much Better ways of tuning an engine, but if carbs is what your into then there is nothing wrong in giving it a go, if you have the time, money and skill to do so :homme:

[Scott]

Sigh, well done axsaxoman however your knowledge will fall on deaf ears on a lot of forums around the world.

Might as well go back to steam engine power as it was once the best?

[Karl]

lol; fair point.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

Sigh, well done axsaxoman however your knowledge will fall on deaf ears on a lot of forums around the world.

Might as well go back to steam engine power as it was once the best?

Scott, last line of that needed?

Some people clearly have ideas that they would like to do themselves....Problem with that?

Since when did they say carbs were best etc...?

[Karl]

Nick, its not the fact that Injection > carbs

or
Carbs > injection

em_sexy106 was wanting to carb a R or an S as a project for a performance track car,

Scott etc are telling you that carbs are no better, infact probably worse for a Saxo when hunting performance.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

Dont forget what the initial question was....:

to do away with the ECU of a Saxo, and the injection system and make it run by Carbueretor?

My friend is into his Mini's and stuff, but he does like the Saxo scene and thinks that a Carbed VT* would be a crazy different thing to do.

Anything wrong with wanting to do something new...

OR should we all have the same car/engine...with an induction kit, exhaust system etc...?

[Karl]

No no no, im all for it, would be cool to see.

But people are saying it'd be no good for performance or whatever.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

Nick, its not the fact that Injection > carbs

or
Carbs > injection

em_sexy106 was wanting to carb a R or an S as a project for a performance track car,

Scott etc are telling you that carbs are no better, infact probably worse for a Saxo when hunting performance.

Ive ever disputed this...

Just dont see why the majority of sax-p are so against trying new things on a saxo..

Ok persoanlly I would carb one but if I saw one id think, woo somones spent alot of time and work on this etc and would be impressed...

Id much rather look at that instead of another poxy vtr/vts engine which just looks the same...

[Karl]

yeah /agreed.

the people against the carbs are still putting up good reasons for why not to carb it...

[shaggers_saxvtr]

No no no, im all for it, would be cool to see.

But people are saying it'd be no good for performance or whatever.

It might not be practical or econoimical etc bt re read what Timc said...

It would blatently be good for performance etc if setup properly... Im sure it could b made to run better than injection.

[Karl]

.....so why not carb an F1 car, as they have the time and money to chuck into this sort of thing.

[Mattvtr]

It might not be practical or econoimical etc bt re read what Timc said...

It would blatently be good for performance etc if setup properly... Im sure it could b made to run better than injection.

have you not been reading what axsaxoman has said, they are only good if temperature and humidity are the same day in day out and also are only good at one point in the rev range.
thats like saying a brain is better than a calculator :panic:

[shaggers_saxvtr]

.....so why not carb an F1 car, as they have the time and money to chuck into this sort of thing.

Because there are BETTER ways to increase than performance...

Yes TBs...turbos...superchargers etc are better...much better for tuning etc..

And carbs may be old fashioned etc..but there is no reason that if you want to whack carbs on that you cant:panic:

[Karl]

yeah No ones saying you cant do it.

people are just telling you you shouldnt, not cant.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

have you not been reading what axsaxoman has said, they are only good if temperature and humidity are the same day in day out and also are only good at one point in the rev range.
thats like saying a brain is better than a calculator :panic:

Yes I have read it all mate...

So you are telling me my mates mine with the KAD 16V conversion on twin weber 40s cannot be used on some days because humidity and temperature fluctuate...?

[Mattvtr]

im saying its not as reliable and you wont get the same performance day in day out

[shaggers_saxvtr]

yeah No ones saying you cant do it.

people are just telling you you shouldnt, not cant.

Thats what ive said all along too....Christ...:panic:

Have i not said there are better things to do etc...?

I have agreed there are better things to do thatn carb a vt etc...

But refuse to take the fact that people say it shouldnt be done.

[Scott]

Scott, last line of that needed?

Some people clearly have ideas that they would like to do themselves....Problem with that?

Since when did they say carbs were best etc...?

Why was it not needed?

Also just to repeat myself, i have nothing against someone wanting to carb, im arguing the point that its a backwards step.

Problem with that? No as i have already stated way back at the start fo the thread. Maybe you have a problem with me wanting to see a steam engined car?

[Karl]

yeah all for it Nick..
But isnt that KAD 16v running on webers is acclaimed to have 140+bhp, except couldnt pull on a standard 106 GTi. therfore I dont think it is running very well, because of the carbs

[Mattvtr]

btw im not saying it shouldnt be done,im just stating that better performance overall not just at one rpm/gear will be found from injection system,etc

[turbo_dave]

To be honest, it sounds like you have the technical ability of a guppy.

Comments like

"carbs would be a laugh and very fast, loud and mean lol"

don't cut it with people who know one end of a spanner from the other I'm affraid. The simple fact of the matter is carbs are gash. A wisened old tuner once described them to me as "a crude device to ensure that an engine recieves 110% of the required fuel 90% of the time".

Until you can hold your own in a technical argument, I suggest you refrain from entering a forum p*ssing contest with people who are not simple aquids.

Oh, and the two post wonder coming to your aid and your reply just enough time later for you to log out and log back in again doesn't cut it I'm affraid. Take it on the chin that it's a pointless excercise, and no matter how "sweet" or "unique" it would be to do, doesn't mean it has to actually be done. It would be "sweet" and "unique" if I was to be fitted with a pair of 48G norks, but it'd be a bit pointless really.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

Why was it not needed?

Also just to repeat myself, i have nothing against someone wanting to carb, im arguing the point that its a backwards step.

Problem with that? No as i have already stated way back at the start fo the thread. Maybe you have a problem with me wanting to see a steam engined car?

Well done, I agree with you that it is a backwards step and I have not even said its the way to get best performance...
Ive just merely concluded that it can be done, and i disagree with the view of some peoplewho believe its a pointless waste of time...

Why not just copy the flintstones, take our floor and engines out? It can be done...pointless though...

[Karl]

........turbo_dave, im sure youd sell alot of videos though?

[shaggers_saxvtr]

yeah all for it Nick..
But isnt that KAD 16v running on webers is acclaimed to have 140+bhp, except couldnt pull on a standard 106 GTi. therfore I dont think it is running very well, because of the carbs
Didnt know that, wuld assume its not setup correctly, tuning carbs isnt easy stuff unless you know how...the only carbs I have ever tuned was on my quad bike and vintage 1940s - 1960s tractors...

[Karl]

Why not just copy the flintstones, take our floor and engines out? It can be done...pointless though...

isnt that contradiciting your thought on why someone should put a Sax on carbs?

[Scott]

Well done, I agree with you that it is a backwards step and I have not even said its the way to get best performance...
Ive just merely concluded that it can be done, and i disagree with the view of some peoplewho believe its a pointless waste of time...

Why not just copy the flintstones, take our floor and engines out? It can be done...pointless though...

I havent once said it cant be done, it can be done, possibly has been done and if someone wants to do it it will be done.

Falls back to the same category of fitting gti6 engines, just trying to advise people that they can achieve the smae thing in difference ways which could be cheaper or easier to do.

Never against pushing the boundaries we wouldnt be anywhere without it, infact we would be driving electronically controlled efficient powerful cars if someone had pushed the boundry and brought us forward.

Anyway im done in this thread if people want to do a carb saxo, you can read whats been put and make up your own mind.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

isnt that contradiciting your thought on why someone should put a Sax on carbs?

Not at all, was I the one that said you should carb a sax?

All i said was it can be done. Never said " carb a saxo...you must...its the best mod you can do.... bla bla..."

[Karl]

Yah true;

kay.

Carb a Saxo and you will get attention, but is a pointless excercise and a waste of cash, unless your looking for attention.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

To be honest, it sounds like you have the technical ability of a guppy.

Comments like

"carbs would be a laugh and very fast, loud and mean lol"

don't cut it with people who know one end of a spanner from the other I'm affraid. The simple fact of the matter is carbs are gash. A wisened old tuner once described them to me as "a crude device to ensure that an engine recieves 110% of the required fuel 90% of the time".

Until you can hold your own in a technical argument, I suggest you refrain from entering a forum p*ssing contest with people who are not simple aquids.

Oh, and the two post wonder coming to your aid and your reply just enough time later for you to log out and log back in again doesn't cut it I'm affraid. Take it on the chin that it's a pointless excercise, and no matter how "sweet" or "unique" it would be to do, doesn't mean it has to actually be done. It would be "sweet" and "unique" if I was to be fitted with a pair of 48G norks, but it'd be a bit pointless really.

Who would this be aimed at then?

Are you a mechanic yourself then?

Personally i feel I have enough knowledge to talk about engines after doing about 6 or more clutches and gearboxes...and im also doing a turbo conversion from an xr2i fiesta to an RS turbo....Plus only 18 too and self taught.

[Karl]

I think he means em_sexy106, as the quote is what they have said.

[shaggers_saxvtr]

I havent once said it cant be done, it can be done, possibly has been done and if someone wants to do it it will be done.

Falls back to the same category of fitting gti6 engines, just trying to advise people that they can achieve the smae thing in difference ways which could be cheaper or easier to do.

Never against pushing the boundaries we wouldnt be anywhere without it, infact we would be driving electronically controlled efficient powerful cars if someone had pushed the boundry and brought us forward.

Anyway im done in this thread if people want to do a carb saxo, you can read whats been put and make up your own mind.

I agree with you Scott. Questions and answers on carbing a saxo have been dealt with... Its becoming a pointless arguement now.

Like ive said in previous posts too better things can be done and if you want performance then carbs wont give you it...TB's, cams, etc will.

But it can be done, id be interested to see it done, it has been done and there is a link somewhere in this thread for it I bleieve.

[turbo_dave]

My friend is into his Mini's and stuff, but he does like the Saxo scene and thinks that a Carbed VT* would be a crazy different thing to do.

Anything wrong with wanting to do something new...

Yes, because it would render the car completely fecking useless. It'd never get an MoT, the power characteristics would be shot to hell, the fuel consumption would go to bollocks, and the car would generally be worse for the effort.

And how many people out there that claim it's for a 'track car' actually go on the track with it? Or have been on the track? or are just a complete bunch of Walter Mittys who like to big it up on the forums while cruising around Halfords' car park?

Sorry if it seems bitchy, but I see it everywhere I go. People whos whole technical ability has been learned fifteenth hand from a forum trying to tell people with real world ability that things are "loud, fast and great".

</rant>

[turbo_dave]

........turbo_dave, im sure youd sell alot of videos though?

Que?

Wassat mean?

[Karl]

It would be "sweet" and "unique" if I was to be fitted with a pair of 48G norks, but it'd be a bit pointless really.

;) lol

[turbo_dave]

Who would this be aimed at then?

em_sexy106 or whatever the hell his name is.

Are you a mechanic yourself then?

Yes I am.

Personally i feel I have enough knowledge to talk about engines after doing about 6 or more clutches and gearboxes...and im also doing a turbo conversion from an xr2i fiesta to an RS turbo....Plus only 18 too and self taught.

Good for you, never doubted it.

Pretty simple jobs though...

[em_sexy106]

ok...

so can someone actually give a technical resson why it wont pass mot?
out of interest!

[CampDavid]

Because the fueling can only be set for a specific air temp/running conditions. Unless the conditions are the same as the day of the MOT then you'll be running too rich or two lean. If it runs too lean it'll go bang. If it runs too rich it'll be using too much fuel increasing emmisions. It'll need to be set to run a touch rich to avoid it pinking and blowing itself into next week so you'll fail the MOT.

Injection systems get round this using air temp and lambda sensors to monitor the way the fuel mix is burning, increasing the mix or leaning it out as neccisary.

[CampDavid]

em_sexy106 or whatever the hell his name is.



That would be a 17 year old lady, not a bloke ;)

[em_sexy106]

ok cool. but if u really tried...maybe a fare few times you might be able to get it to pass?

just alot of aggro and time lol

[Karl]

Yes it could pass an MOT, just with time and money >_<
making it very inpracticle

[em_sexy106]

its only once a year haha
most of you change ur zorst n de cats and that
i guess thats just as much hassle lol

so what if we made a pimp euro saxo street cruiser?

[CampDavid]

I guess if you set it up perfectly it may go through? Or just set it to dangerously under fuel for the MOT? Pointless though. What you'd really be after is some kind of electronic modern version of carbs really. Like fuel injection

[em_sexy106]

haha i guess
i jus think it would make a change, look cool, and show off mechanical skills!

maybe one day ay?

[turbo_dave]

ok...

so can someone actually give a technical resson why it wont pass mot?
out of interest!

Easy.

Carbs have poor slow speed fuel atomisation at idle which leads to incomplete burn and higher emissions (specifically, high levels of HCs and CO).

This is why you get twin choke carbs, one small for low engine speeds and one large for higher engine speeds, and the advent of Fords dreadful VV carbs. Twin chokes helped to a point, but you'll not get a carb through modern cat emissions levels. And fitting a cat to a carb equipped vehicle will just cause it to die sooner than EFI.

[CampDavid]

its only once a year haha
most of you change ur zorst n de cats and that
i guess thats just as much hassle lol

so what if we made a pimp euro saxo street cruiser?

Exhaust swap is an hours work, even for my mechanically inept hands. a carb setup requires a little more skill.

If you made a euro saxo pimp shitcunt street thingy I really wouldn't be that bothered as its not really my thing

[em_sexy106]

oh ok matey!
well sorry for any upset or frustration caused throughout this post!! :D

[turbo_dave]

I guess if you set it up perfectly it may go through? Or just set it to dangerously under fuel for the MOT? Pointless though. What you'd really be after is some kind of electronic modern version of carbs really. Like fuel injection

That's also a no go. Underfuelling will only serve to promote incomplete burn (look what happens when you do underfuel, the engine runs like sh*t) thus exacerbating the situation vis high HC and CO.

Increasing advance at idle when the engine is under no load I find is a more reliable way of trying to bring the emissions under control on a lairy TBed lump trying to pass a cat test without a cat.

[jacko1250]

sorry but i just have to point out that just a few years ago a Yamaha R1 was not fuel injected, oh no it had carbs on... the motorcycle carbs are considerably better developed than webers, they are smaller lighter more responsive..... (how long do you have) they are readilly available from bike breakers as old folk love to pull out in front of bikers. So why not get some and graft them on to a hybrid manifold? they will probably be topped slightly on performance by throttle boddies but hey modifying is not about following the crowd and doing what some other bloke says is cool! i am stocking up on parts to do this to a pug 205(long term project but can't wait to break it out!!)

So i'm with you fella, give it a bash!

[CampDavid]

Die thread die

[williamsvts]

it tkaes 15mins to change an exhaust for an MOT, but it will take a few hours of tweaking the carb to get emmisions right, you would also need to put your cat back on. i still dont think it would pass an MOT though, thats why you need a friendly tester.

jacko - its been done and didnt give anywhere near the performance gain expected. in 1 case the car even lost power!!!!
car and motorbike engines have completely different power delivery and driving characteristcs. if carbs were soo good why would all car makers/racers use EFi now??

[jacko1250]

Thanks for that williamsvtr the people in question were obviously expecting considerably more power gain than is likely! there are so many potential variables with such a project as i am sure you are aware. things as simple as the length of manifolds, to the quality of fabrication can make a large differance when using carbs. The welding required should obviously be scanned engineeringly to check for high pressure gas seal.
Admittedly there is a bigger advantage if done on a single point injection engine over a multi point. but atleast you admit there is a performance gain tho not as big as they would have liked!

[KamRacing]

sorry but i just have to point out that just a few years ago a Yamaha R1 was not fuel injected, oh no it had carbs on... the motorcycle carbs are considerably better developed than webers, they are smaller lighter more responsive..... (how long do you have) they are readilly available from bike breakers as old folk love to pull out in front of bikers. So why not get some and graft them on to a hybrid manifold? they will probably be topped slightly on performance by throttle boddies but hey modifying is not about following the crowd and doing what some other bloke says is cool! i am stocking up on parts to do this to a pug 205(long term project but can't wait to break it out!!)

So i'm with you fella, give it a bash!

The carbs on bikes are far better than the car equivalent BUT these still do still not give you the same advantages as a TB setup will give you.

[jacko1250]

this is very true and was never in question. throttle bodies are top! but the general point was that this should (if done correctly) give you a performance gain over standard and over twin webers. Carbs can be done!

[mick2404]

I see you talking about minis --well any serious mini racer --if the regs allow would go injection everytime-- there is a large market for injection systems on classic sports cars now to replace the worh out distributors and wankie carbs -- i would promise a power increase on any car when replacing old system with new ,even in totally std tune ,it will run smoother ,accelerate quicker ,by more fuel efficent --the oil will keep cleaner and engine will last longer.
icould go in to much more detail of the advantages of ecu controlled ignition and fuelling ,but believe me there is no earthly reason to use carbs on any engine if you have a choice

Injections cars have thier place.... as for removing the carbs on my mini, it's not worth the time/effort/cost....

there are ALOT of people who have spi minis that have taken off the spi system and went back to carbs, which show's by concensus the injection system in a+ engines is inferior when looking for power increases.

As i said in a previous post on this thread, show me a 100bhp + injection mini.. (obviously none turbo or s/charged)

**edit** if carbs are only fit for the bin btw, why are you a weber stockist??? LMFAO

[Scott]

**edit** if carbs are only fit for the bin btw, why are you a weber stockist??? LMFAO

its called supply and demand.

[mick2404]

its called supply and demand.

Effectively tho that'd be like saying :

"saxo's are ****" and then opening a used car lot that sells saxo's?!?!


Incidentally i'm playing devil's advocate here, i've got carbed and injected cars and know that there are benefit's to both...

[vtsrich]

carbs arnt as good as throtel bodeys but you still get about a 25 bhp increse iv got a set of r1 carbs and meger jolt manigment wot i paid £200 for wot im going to put on my vts thats a bit difrent to wot you pay for throtel bodeys £2000 lol