newmans ph3

[frapevts]

hi all i about to purchase sum cams for my vts fink im gunna get ph3 so far ive got usall mods manifold de cat full sytem bmc indution etc are these the best choice??

also what else is needed to fit them do i require a vernier pully as been told the standard ones are ajustable also will it run ok for a lil while untill get a remap any info will be great cheers dan

[KamRacing]

it will run but a bit lumpy. You dont need to buy an additional vernier pulley set for the newmans PH3 (http://www.kamracing.co.uk/index.php/citroen/citroen-saxo/saxo-engine/camshafts/newman-ph3-fast-road-camshafts-citroen-saxo-vts.html) as the standard ones can be adjusted.

[mark1311]

good idead to put set of new followers on aswell mate. as the followers where with the cams, dont ave to do it, and doset effect power, just makes it stronger engine.

[simon123]

it will run but a bit lumpy.newmans PH3 (http://www.kamracing.co.uk/index.php/citroen/citroen-saxo/saxo-engine/camshafts/newman-ph3-fast-road-camshafts-citroen-saxo-vts.html) as the standard ones can be adjusted.

What do yom mean when you say "it will run but a bit lumpy"

[raunchz]

the idle will be lumpy

[stupotvtr]

What do yom mean when you say "it will run but a bit lumpy"

when idleing the revs wont stay at a constant rpm they will dip and rev slightly.

you tube lumpy idle there should be loads of examples.

[frapevts]

Cheers guys so the ph3s are a gd cam to go with do u set them up on origanall timming marks I was also told sumthin about could advance the timming to get a beta idle??

[stupotvtr]

ph3 or catcams 708 both virtually identical. Might be worth getting a vtr fpr as ive been told mines idles alot nicer than other cammed vts's and it uses the vtr fpr.

[RAFkev]

Mine is on ph3 cams with a predator ecu. At a RR session in feb I recorded 164bhp ATF. Well happy with that.

I don't have a lumpy idle however mine idles at about 1100rpm. A little higher than standard just to prevent the lumpiness! And prevent stalling.

[Jo3fish]

Everything you need to know can be found on/via this page;

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55729

Sticks threads are awsome :D e.g. "cams thread".

Regards,
Joe

[AndySAXO]

Mine is on ph3 cams with a predator ecu. At a RR session in feb I recorded 164bhp ATF. Well happy with that.

I don't have a lumpy idle however mine idles at about 1100rpm. A little higher than standard just to prevent the lumpiness! And prevent stalling.

What dyno was this on?

Yer they will tick over lumpy, til mapped and sorted.

[RAFkev]

What dyno was this on?

Yer they will tick over lumpy, til mapped and sorted.

AwesomeGTI.
It's a VW place near Manchester.
I thought it was a high figure but a Clio 182 went on it with only a K&N filter on it and that figure was 183bhp! So I figure it's accurate.

[Russ_16v]

Unfortunately, its very rare for a 1*2 to get anyehere near its standard figures, a 172 should be 169bhp, and a 182 should be 179, but most 172's average around 160-165 bhp and most 182's around 170-175bhp.

Id say from that figure you will be running around 152-155 honest bhp.

Still a very good figure just for cams.

[stupotvtr]

Yeah sounds high for 160bhp or more you usually need beadwork done.

[RAFkev]

Well that's pissed on my parade!
Reckon there will be a mobile RR at Trax?

[RAFkev]

Sorry for the thread hijack fella!

But yeah ph3 cams are good! Lol

[stupotvtr]

Well that's pissed on my parade!
Reckon there will be a mobile RR at Trax?

:panic: mobile RR will read high so people see high figures then pay to put thier car on.

ask in you region if people know where a good RR is :y:

[AndySAXO]

yer never go on mobile RR figures.. and yer was going to say.. clio sport never really make the power stated from factory... best standard 182 i seem was about 169ish!!

even renualt garage will say the same.

but was that off just andy map and timing???

[Russ_16v]

Best 182 iv seen has been 178 bhp standard, but the main problem is the inlet manifolds, they ar every poorly matched, some cars can see 10 bhp + from having the inlets matched in size.

I suggest RS Tuning in Leeds, very accurate rolling road, mine has made 192 bhp on Pauls rollers, im off back on Monday for a few tweaks as we ran out of time last session.

As for others, my list is very short:

RS Tuning
Tour-De-Force - Matt really knows his stuff and his rollers are known to also be accurate.

[RAFkev]

but was that off just andy map and timing???

Yeah. He's a demon with setting cars up! Obviously with mods listed in my sig below.
I'm doing a track day at oulton park in September so we'll see how it compares to other cars then. Does pull well up the range though. :-)
Oh and think I'll do a 0-60 or two at trax. ;)

[Russ_16v]

I wouldnt worry too much about figures mate, if it pulls well then thats the important thing :)

[jsdvtr]

ph3 or catcams 708 both virtually identical. Might be worth getting a vtr fpr as ive been told mines idles alot nicer than other cammed vts's and it uses the vtr fpr.

Is this true about the vtr fpr? I was going to buy a 3.5Bar one with fitting the cams but looking at getting the pred ina few months.

[stupotvtr]

Just been told it idles better, vtr fpr is 3.5bar vts is 3bar iirc. It will still need mapped though to get the proper power of the cams.

Check the 3rd or 4th page on my progres I have videos of the dials when idling

[AndySAXO]

yer VTR FPR is 3.5... it will increase the amount of power the injecotrs will take...

i am running a 3.5 FPR and clio sport injectors and still running 80% fuel duty!!

a vtr FPR will help keep the fuel duty cylce down that for sure.

[jsdvtr]

yer VTR FPR is 3.5... it will increase the amount of power the injecotrs will take...

i am running a 3.5 FPR and clio sport injectors and still running 80% fuel duty!!

a vtr FPR will help keep the fuel duty cylce down that for sure.


Raunchz suggested to put a 3.5bar fpr with fitting cams, is this nessecery? I was also told by someone else to do so rather than -2degree inlet cam.

[raunchz]

Time the ph3s up to their spec, not standard timing marks

The 3.5Bar fpr is a crude way to try and fuel the engine right at high revs/loads until you can get it remapped

[AndySAXO]

they will defo fun lumpy timing them to the newman spec.. as the newman spec is for mapped car really...

Ken Newman told me.... to retard the inlet 2 degrees, will help the idle... when still using a standard mapped ECU.

it will just help it.. that all... but if you going to do that always turn the engine over by hand to make sure no Valve to piston contact.

[raunchz]

A rough guide is if you increase the fuel pressure by 1Bar, you increase the injector cc by 10%, so they will be at a lower duty cycle at max bhp/torque

[raunchz]

It shouldn't run too bad if timed up right

[jsdvtr]

Well i really want the pred but no 3plug so was maybe thinking of swaping loom to single plug and single plug ecu.

[KamRacing]

you also need to make sure there is no contact between the cams and the head. Some batches of head castings are not as good as others on tolerances..

[stupotvtr]

I'm not saying get a vtr fpr and forget mapping I'm just saying it might help the the drivability for day to day until you get it mapped. I don't know what my timing is set at so can't help there.

Will the vtr fpr help when mapped compaired to standard vts fpr?

[frapevts]

Sum said about timming them up2 the ph3 spec not origanal marks hw do you no what the ph3 spec or marks. Are jus a bit confused with seting the timming cheers

[Steve]

Sum said about timming them up2 the ph3 spec not origanal marks hw do you no what the ph3 spec or marks. Are jus a bit confused with seting the timming cheers

you get them off the newmans website mate.
google nemans cams its the top link.

[frapevts]

A little more info needed I jus enquired with pug1 of about how much the remap and set up would b and was told that with ph3s the car won't idle very well atall and can't really set them up properly and may have less power than standard aparently its betta to use a ph3 inlet and a ph1 exhaust cam any 1 heard of this betta results?? Cheers

[Steve]

thats shite.
with intake and exhaust mods and a remap most people make between 150 - 160bhp standards 118bhp.

Plenty of people and close friends included run the PH3's with the standard ecu remapped, has a lumpy idle but it isnt bad at all, and runs perfectly fine and is a fair amount quicker than standard.
Also if not giving it the beans they always get better mpg than standard :geek:
Saxo_rons used to easily return mid 300 to a tank with a bit of raking where as my standard s would only ever do 280 max with the same driving.

To be deadly honest, get the cams fitted. Get them set so you can drive the car safetly and idle if you wish and take it to wayne at chipwizards in rochdale he will set the cam timing and remap it. Not sure what he charges these days £600?
sounds alot but it will be done right!

If i was doing what you were doing that would be the first and probably only place i would take it.
He knows what he is doing and has done 100's of members cars, and he always gets the thumbs up!
Do a search on here for chipwizards.

[raunchz]

thats shite.
with intake and exhaust mods and a remap most people make between 150 - 160bhp standards 118bhp.

Plenty of people and close friends included run the PH3's with the standard ecu remapped, has a lumpy idle but it isnt bad at all, and runs perfectly fine and is a fair amount quicker than standard.
Also if not giving it the beans they always get better mpg than standard :geek:
Saxo_rons used to easily return mid 300 to a tank with a bit of raking where as my standard s would only ever do 280 max with the same driving.

To be deadly honest, get the cams fitted. Get them set so you can drive the car safetly and idle if you wish and take it to wayne at chipwizards in rochdale he will set the cam timing and remap it. Not sure what he charges these days £600?
sounds alot but it will be done right!

If i was doing what you were doing that would be the first and probably only place i would take it.
He knows what he is doing and has done 100's of members cars, and he always gets the thumbs up!
Do a search on here for chipwizards.

+1 to all of that, especially the first line :clapping:

[AndySAXO]

yer pug1off said that to me... best going direct to NMS they do the mapping for pug1off....

andy

[frapevts]

Deos any 1 have the number or how to contact nms cheers so with the mods I've got such as manifold decat fukk system bmc and ajustable fpr the best way to go is straight to ph3s dn a decent map

[stupotvtr]

Have you looked at catcam 708s? There very similar and I'm sure when i researched buying them I read somewhere they idle better when unmapped can't remember where though :geek:

[raunchz]

Nms don't map standard Ecus though

[frapevts]

I have looked at the cat cams is this true about them running betta idle etc will I still need a remap to run them what sorta power differnce is there between 708s and ph3s cheers

[raunchz]

As a see it:

Piper Bp285s - the milder of the 'fast road cams', the exhaust cam is a lot milder than the rest

Catcam 708s - middle ground of 'fast road cams', people have got great results with these

Ph3's - pretty much as wild as you can go on standard engine.

If you look at their specs online you'll see how their duration and lift compares with each other. But these figures don't tell the whole story, would need to measure the lift profiles of each cam to compare them at different amounts of lift.

[stupotvtr]

I always though 708s and ph3s were the wildest on standard pistons? Didn't realise ph3 was wilder :(

[frapevts]

What sorta results are people getting from either ph3 or 708s which ones are easier to fit and time up keeping the cost as low as poss with the mapping etc cheers

[stupotvtr]

Results are similar, ph3 possibly a few bhp higher. Newmans are cheapest. So I bought catcams:panic:

[AndySAXO]

ross i didnt know he was on about the standard ecu as pug1off dont as they use NMS that why i was staying that.

[frapevts]

what would you guys recomend out of the two?? cheers

[AndySAXO]

two what??

pug1off and NMS?? NMS as they do the pug1off maps anyway... so why go to the thrid part?

[adamskiTNR]

I have heard nothing but bad stuff from pug1off. Don't know if it's just coincidence though

[AndySAXO]

well the fact that they do the torsion bar wrong worrys me... to start with.. there engine work seem good.. but again do do there own maps.

and told me alot of duff info about my pistons..

[frapevts]

ok cheers yeah would be beta to go straight to them and i did mean recomend out of the ph3s or 708s cheers

[AndySAXO]

Well both the same, ph3 are cheap at the moment.

I would say ph3.

[3cott]

Ph3 imo

[Steve]

what would you guys recomend out of the two?? cheers

seriously mate.

PH3's and go to chipwizards to get the standard ECU remapped its a no brainer.

[saxo_ron]

thats shite.
with intake and exhaust mods and a remap most people make between 150 - 160bhp standards 118bhp.

Plenty of people and close friends included run the PH3's with the standard ecu remapped, has a lumpy idle but it isnt bad at all, and runs perfectly fine and is a fair amount quicker than standard.
Also if not giving it the beans they always get better mpg than standard :geek:
Saxo_rons used to easily return mid 300 to a tank with a bit of raking where as my standard s would only ever do 280 max with the same driving.

To be deadly honest, get the cams fitted. Get them set so you can drive the car safetly and idle if you wish and take it to wayne at chipwizards in rochdale he will set the cam timing and remap it. Not sure what he charges these days £600?
sounds alot but it will be done right!

If i was doing what you were doing that would be the first and probably only place i would take it.
He knows what he is doing and has done 100's of members cars, and he always gets the thumbs up!
Do a search on here for chipwizards.

seriously mate.

PH3's and go to chipwizards to get the standard ECU remapped its a no brainer.

Exactly what he said

[frapevts]

hi again ive nw got my ph3s im fittimg them tomoro so do i jus put them in on origanal timming marks the adjust from there to get a slightly beta idle until get remap etc is it beta to advance or retard the inlet cam and also am i gunna notice a differance untill setup properly cheers dan

[AndySAXO]

Leave the ex standard timing. And retard inlet about 2 degrees, just for now, once timed though, turn over by hand just to make sure no contact.