Boosted engine build

[jsdvtr]

Looking at building up a boosted engine with forged stuff, Will i need to go for uprated stuff over standard becasue of the extra power?

What parts should i change apart from the obvious stuff?

Is there any guides of how to build up a engine, etc?

[Rob_McLav]

depends on what power u r going for?

[raunchz]

What do you mean 'usual stuff'?

Be more specific!

General guide on building an engine really. Major criteria for succes is the quality of machining, correct clearances and accurate torquing of bolts.

[jsdvtr]

Headgasket, cambelt, waterpump, big end bearings, main bearings, stem seals.

Well high boost run something like 18-20psi. 300bhp atw would be good but depends on turbo.

Its things like torque settings id be unsure about and where to start, having everything timed up correctly.

[blackie_2k5]

timing and stuff is easy, its the little things that ppl dont know about when building an engine

if youve not done... and dont really know, unless your prety confident wouldnt you rather someone else done it for you? as itd be alot of money to blow up...

if confident get yourself an engine building book, its all pretty much the same in majority, just some engine have extras etc, vtr/s engines are pretty simple to work on

[jsdvtr]

timing and stuff is easy, its the little things that ppl dont know about when building an engine

if youve not done... and dont really know, unless your prety confident wouldnt you rather someone else done it for you? as itd be alot of money to blow up...

if confident get yourself an engine building book, its all pretty much the same in majority, just some engine have extras etc, vtr/s engines are pretty simple to work on

Well its something ive always wanted to do. I could maybe get it checked over by someone when ive built bottom end.

Places by me charge about £600 for engine build.

[Gareth_R]

You can't really check it over after

Things like torque settings and measuring clearances will be done as you build it up

[jsdvtr]

Is there any specific or special tools i'd need?

[Quick]

If you are building an engine for the first time, I would be making a high spec high power boosted one!

Decent set of tools with torque wrench etc....

[raunchz]

Feeler gauges
Torque wrenches (one to do small torques, and one for bigger - so maybe a 1/4" one and a 3/8" or 1/2" one)
Angle gauge
If got arp rod bolts then ideally a stretch gauge
Good set of sockets and ratchets
Engine stand
Valve spring compressors
Piston ring compressor
Set of good quality files
Good set of punches
Tap and die set



Can't think of much else right now

[Gareth_R]

plastigauge

[Frenchcarp]

Feeler gauges
Torque wrenches (one to do small torques, and one for bigger - so maybe a 1/4" one and a 3/8" or 1/2" one)
Angle gauge
If got arp rod bolts then ideally a stretch gauge
Good set of sockets and ratchets
Engine stand
Valve spring compressors
Piston ring compressor
Set of good quality files
Good set of punches
Tap and die set



Can't think of much else right now

Spanners?

[raunchz]

Spanners?

And spanners :p

[jsdvtr]

Right, i have found someone who will build me a engine cheap who used to be a mechanic at citroen and has built a few engines that i know off. Saves me building it up and getting it wrong.

Things im unsure of are boring the block, should i stay standard size?

What size headgasket and compression ratio to go for?

[raunchz]

IMO I'd stay standard size

You going forged pistons? What head? Jp4 or j4?

[adzvtr]

if running forged low comp pistons, and the head hasnt been skimmed then a standard size head gasket is fine.

boring all depends wether or not you go for standard size or oversized pistons.

but you will atleast want to hone the bores.

[jsdvtr]

IMO I'd stay standard size

You going forged pistons? What head? Jp4 or j4?

Well hopefully forged rods and pistons, j4 head.

if running forged low comp pistons, and the head hasnt been skimmed then a standard size head gasket is fine.

boring all depends wether or not you go for standard size or oversized pistons.

but you will atleast want to hone the bores.

Ye i was thinking just a hone with standard size bore.

[blackie_2k5]

go off the condition of your block on strip down to what size you choose. If theyre in good shape use standard size with a light hone

[KamRacing]

You could take the opportunity to fit a stroker kit (http://www.kamracing.co.uk/citroen/citroen-saxo/saxo-engine/stroker-kits/zrp-stroker-kit-citroen-saxo-16v.html)

[toxic]

have a go i am all good fun :)

[LeeM]

if youre getting both forged rods and pistons, defo try and save the extra for that stroker kit!

[axsaxoman]

with rods = pistons @£750+ vat
a stroker kit @£1695+vat --thats a big difference ,not saying its not worth the money ,

you should decide on power level you want and type of boost before spending anything ,that will decide what you NEED to do and you can then see how far your budget goes ,don,t forget if you go for boost you also need dif clutch = engine mountings ,ex system ,etc ,etc.
your power level will decide what is a must and what is advisable

[blackie_2k5]

dont really see the point in the stroker kit tbh, can get more power than you could ever really use on stock size anyway... Unless going balls out drag car, but lets face it, if you were you probs wouldnt pick a saxo for that, money be better spent elsewhere, could get a diff or good clutch and have money spare with the saving

[KamRacing]

less lag, quicker spool time, more off boost power for starters. With decent thought into suspension and other drivetrain components power is simply not a problem. Traction off the line may be an issue if you are a lead footed oaf. People are already putting forged components in, so an extra £1k is not a lot in the overall cost to get a much better car.

[axsaxoman]

bigger CC will mean you should be able to get same bhp with less boost ,so not a bad idea ,but it all costs money .
it is well known my dislike for big power turbo saxo,s as a road car ,simply due to the heat isssues in a small engine bay and the uncontrollabe way a big turbo suddenly spools up
if you are going for silly 300bhp anyway it will be a total animal no matter what you do ,but an s/c version will be easier to drive and less harmful to transmission and if for a road car that bhp is silly and expect reliability to be a lot less than with lower power .
what is classed as a reliable track spec is a world different than a relaible road spec ,due if nothing else to mileage/ hours between rebuilds
if you did a full season 10 races of racing I doubt the engine would run more than 500/1000miles--so think hard about realistic usage

[jsdvtr]

Right im going to be buying all the rebuild parts from now-

Ive currently got-

Oil filter
Spark plugs (NGK)
Valve stem seals, citroen (just bought)
Cam seals, citroen (just bought)
Crank seal, citroen (just bought)
Bearings, citroen - unsure if main or big end (just bought)

Other things i will be buying are-

Headbolts
Headgasket
Cambelt kit
Waterpump

[raunchz]

Right im going to be buying all the rebuild parts from now-

Ive currently got-

Oil filter
Spark plugs (NGK)
Valve stem seals, citroen (just bought)
Cam seals, citroen (just bought)
Crank seal, citroen (just bought)
Bearings, citroen - unsure if main or big end (just bought)

Other things i will be buying are-

Headbolts
Headgasket
Cambelt kit
Waterpump

How don't you know what bearings you've bought, surely you need to know the size of bearings to buy?

[adzvtr]

^^^^
correct, ud atleast need to measure the crank for any wear while its out.
there is also the case of what size standard bearings ull need as there are 3 different sizes before you go into oversized,
usually there is a letter on your block and crank to identify the size of shell(bearing you will need.

[jsdvtr]

Well the guy im getting them from was unsure which and said he got them from citroen. Im getting the stuff of him cheap anyway

[raunchz]

^^^ cheap is no use if they're the wrong size !!

It'll end up costing you more if they're wrong size and you need a different size. If you're spending a lot (which I can imagine you are) and looking to run big power you'll want to make sure you've got the right size crankshaft bearings!!

Pretty please listen to us and do it properly

[adzvtr]

id give up now and save urself alot of money if your going to just chuck any set of bearings in.

having built my own boosted engine. replaced all main,big end bearings. its not to difficult.
you can send the crank and block to a machine shop and they can measure and check everything for a small price, then get you the correct sizes you need fort a safe build.
i think i payed £40 to have my crank checked for wear and balanced and polished.

[blackie_2k5]

less lag, quicker spool time, more off boost power for starters. With decent thought into suspension and other drivetrain components power is simply not a problem. Traction off the line may be an issue if you are a lead footed oaf. People are already putting forged components in, so an extra £1k is not a lot in the overall cost to get a much better car.

bigger CC will mean you should be able to get same bhp with less boost ,so not a bad idea ,but it all costs money .
it is well known my dislike for big power turbo saxo,s as a road car ,simply due to the heat isssues in a small engine bay and the uncontrollabe way a big turbo suddenly spools up
if you are going for silly 300bhp anyway it will be a total animal no matter what you do ,but an s/c version will be easier to drive and less harmful to transmission and if for a road car that bhp is silly and expect reliability to be a lot less than with lower power .
what is classed as a reliable track spec is a world different than a relaible road spec ,due if nothing else to mileage/ hours between rebuilds
if you did a full season 10 races of racing I doubt the engine would run more than 500/1000miles--so think hard about realistic usage

agreed on both parts, but i still dont see the point, i know what you gain, but gains arent anything worth shouting about, in bang for buck terms..... obviousley it depends what spec/use your going for, but on a boosted track car at 300bhp in a saxo.. you can easily get that without a stroker whilst keeping in the rpm's youd use on track to keep it on the boost, and decent ducting/vents/inter/oil coolers will keep it at fair temperature..so why spend more?

should have maybe made that clearer when i first posted :oops:

but as i said, i think the money saved will be better spent elsewhere, it would be nice to have, id love a stroker kit for my vtr....but i dont see the point for my use (and what i can gather the op wants form his blog)

[jsdvtr]

Main thing is having the funds to get a engine build finished which is a worry about starting it. I will most likely get it running on low boost to start with.

[blackie_2k5]

best off doing a shoppping list mate, spec it first and leave a few hundred aside for extras you will have forgotten about(always stuff you cant spec for)

then see what that leaves you for engine mods

[jsdvtr]

best off doing a shoppping list mate, spec it first and leave a few hundred aside for extras you will have forgotten about(always stuff you cant spec for)

then see what that leaves you for engine mods

Well i know exacly what im getting just having the cash. Just saving for dp manifold atm then will be sandy loom.

[blackie_2k5]

Well i know exacly what im getting just having the cash. Just saving for dp manifold atm then will be sandy loom.

do you NEED this spec? or is it just to be a whore? there are lots of other manis to chose from at diff ranges of price, which can perform just aswell if not better depending on the spec you want from the car?

[Jay_]

probably being a whore same as lots of others on this site. :n:


Quite a few engine build threads popping up and I love reading about them...One day I will do my own.... :S

[jsdvtr]

do you NEED this spec? or is it just to be a whore? there are lots of other manis to chose from at diff ranges of price, which can perform just aswell if not better depending on the spec you want from the car?

Well i was going to go for the miltek one but only fit the gt17 turbo. Ive got the dp downpipe already anyway.
If i could have a manifold like dannys made would save me alot but just alot of work and knowing someone to make one up,etc.

Loom side, omex race loom is nearly same as a sandy ecu and engine loom together.

Like i say it will be low boost to start with. Then look at forged and better turbo i.e genuine garrett.

[blackie_2k5]

DP are great manifolds, but are expensive, if your not going for daft power you may be best off selling your DP downpipe and going for a set up better suited to your needs and budget, it is nice to have the best things

but speaking from experience, its not cheap even on a budget, i sold my forged gear etc so i could crack on with my build, was sick of waiting about, ive got a 6 month old baby and im sure i read your expecting, theres one thing after another pops up when theyre new born, and go through clothes quickly lol

so it takes any spare money you have away for a bit, worth thinking about, now ive got the major expenses of a newborn out the way, once ive tied a few bits up im going forged again for the spec i wanted, but ive still got a 218bhp vtr to enjoy for the time being

just my opinion mate :y:

[KamRacing]

agreed on both parts, but i still dont see the point, i know what you gain, but gains arent anything worth shouting about, in bang for buck terms..... obviousley it depends what spec/use your going for, but on a boosted track car at 300bhp in a saxo.. you can easily get that without a stroker whilst keeping in the rpm's youd use on track to keep it on the boost, and decent ducting/vents/inter/oil coolers will keep it at fair temperature..so why spend more?

should have maybe made that clearer when i first posted :oops:

but as i said, i think the money saved will be better spent elsewhere, it would be nice to have, id love a stroker kit for my vtr....but i dont see the point for my use (and what i can gather the op wants form his blog)

If you are chasing simple maximum numbers then the expense simply wont add up, but I think the stroked engine will be faster, easier to drive and more reliable. Its not the peak figure that matters but how it gets there. Theres a million and one ways to build an engine and its not going to be for everyone though.

[blackie_2k5]

If you are chasing simple maximum numbers then the expense simply wont add up, but I think the stroked engine will be faster, easier to drive and more reliable. Its not the peak figure that matters but how it gets there. Theres a million and one ways to build an engine and its not going to be for everyone though.

i know mate, as said i maybe should of added i was implying on the spec i gathered the OP was going for from what ive seen him post previous :n: my bad tbh

as said, id love a stroked vtr/s turbo would really help on a fast road car, mine picks up full boost about 3.2k, been caught off guard quite a few times on the road...bigger turbo'd car will suffer more then i do lol, but on track i couldnt see it being an issue with most set ups :y:

but as youve pointed out it will help in more areas then just off boost pickup

[jsdvtr]

DP are great manifolds, but are expensive, if your not going for daft power you may be best off selling your DP downpipe and going for a set up better suited to your needs and budget, it is nice to have the best things

but speaking from experience, its not cheap even on a budget, i sold my forged gear etc so i could crack on with my build, was sick of waiting about, ive got a 6 month old baby and im sure i read your expecting, theres one thing after another pops up when theyre new born, and go through clothes quickly lol

so it takes any spare money you have away for a bit, worth thinking about, now ive got the major expenses of a newborn out the way, once ive tied a few bits up im going forged again for the spec i wanted, but ive still got a 218bhp vtr to enjoy for the time being

just my opinion mate :y:

Yes i have got little one on the way, well im putting money away for after it comes thats why im skint atm but it will save me money after the babys here in long run.

It is a shame they arent many more turbo manifolds on the market.


If you are chasing simple maximum numbers then the expense simply wont add up, but I think the stroked engine will be faster, easier to drive and more reliable. Its not the peak figure that matters but how it gets there. Theres a million and one ways to build an engine and its not going to be for everyone though.

What sort of power would a stroker kit give over say a n/a setup on say ph4? say so 180 atf. Not seen a 1.8 n/a engine ina saxo i dont think, only know of cituning turbo 8v on youtube.

[axsaxoman]

Right im going to be buying all the rebuild parts from now-

Ive currently got-

Oil filter
Spark plugs (NGK)
Valve stem seals, citroen (just bought)
Cam seals, citroen (just bought)
Crank seal, citroen (just bought)
Bearings, citroen - unsure if main or big end (just bought)

Other things i will be buying are-

Headbolts
Headgasket
Cambelt kit
Waterpump
stop buying parts ,as util you have power level firm you cannot know what parts you will need .
EG
some turbo manifolds require you to use a remote foil filter ,so oil filtercould be wrong
what grade of spark plugs --certainly power level+ type of usage will alter the choice of grade.
measure crank --does it need regrind --shells different .
why change the water pump if its ok?
there will be plenty of things to spend money on once you have got the spec decided.
Imust have seen 20-or 30 posts strat like your over the last 10years on forums and all waste money and most never even get finished .


what bhp ?
what type of usage?
what ecu system ?
turbo or s/c?
what clutch?
what engine mtgs?
what drive shafts?
what g/box?
start with the first question and work your way down the list .
and most importantly DO NOT change your mind lightly,that will definately compromise the project + cost you money .
300bhp is not an everyday driver,presuming its a REAL 300 bhp--.

[coleman258]

Well i was going to go for the miltek one but only fit the gt17 turbo. Ive got the dp downpipe already anyway.
If i could have a manifold like dannys made would save me alot but just alot of work and knowing someone to make one up,etc.

Loom side, omex race loom is nearly same as a sandy ecu and engine loom together.

Like i say it will be low boost to start with. Then look at forged and better turbo i.e genuine garrett.

The miltek is t25/t28 so plenty of decent turbos to chose from, I've just bought one myself.