Interesting read... Weight saving and reducing drag n turbulannce

[Mochachino]

Most of the stuff mentioned in this is obvious stuff and nothing to to the majority of us, but it also has results afterwards of the performance increase.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...e/viewall.html

[axsaxoman]

drag goes up as a square of velcoity --so its of little importance to cars that do not exceed 150mph all the time --waste of effort
if you put areo devices on that will work to give more grip at lower speeds you will need alot more bhp to push the car round
interetsing but no use on a little tin top car
unless you can get the car ride height down to less than 1" from track there is no gain from under body devices either

you will gain far more in a lap time by being the last man to hit the brakes into the corner

[KamRacing]

Every little helps. Like for like the car with better aero might gain a 1 or 2 mph advantage at the end of the straight. But also a lighter car can stop in a shorter distance. Thats enough to get your nose ahead and carry more speed through the corner.
The biggest benefits for the aero are simply fuel consumption. Use less fuel, carry less fuel.
Most of the benefits are really helping for road use. Thats a nice gain in efficiency.

[106maxi]

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

drag goes up as a square of velcoity --so its of little importance to cars that do not exceed 150mph all the time --waste of effort
if you put areo devices on that will work to give more grip at lower speeds you will need alot more bhp to push the car round
interetsing but no use on a little tin top car
unless you can get the car ride height down to less than 1" from track there is no gain from under body devices either

you will gain far more in a lap time by being the last man to hit the brakes into the corner

What is that based on?
Opinion or theory?
The theory I have read says otherwise.

[dannygti]

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

drag goes up as a square of velcoity --so its of little importance to cars that do not exceed 150mph all the time --waste of effort
if you put areo devices on that will work to give more grip at lower speeds you will need alot more bhp to push the car round
interetsing but no use on a little tin top car
unless you can get the car ride height down to less than 1" from track there is no gain from under body devices either

you will gain far more in a lap time by being the last man to hit the brakes into the corner

Completely disagree apart from the very last part..


I believe you can waste your time by fitting aero mods to cars where they are not needed (ie, standard Saxo Vtr) but when a car is highly strung and there are improvements to be made then why not?
It has been proven (even by major manufacturers) that the simplest of aero mods make nice differences.

For me, even if there is no physical advantage of aero but yet it inspires confidence in the driver to go faster then surely it's a worthwhile thing?

[106maxi]

you will gain far more in a lap time by being the last man to hit the brakes into the corner

You'll actually gain more by being the first man on the throttle into a straight.

[manic]

Loose weight out the car and off the driver. get it corner weighter properly. spend as much as you want. but the main thi g is being able to drive the thing. look at touring car. all drivers are there cos of there wallet. i would highly advise getting driver tuition and you will go alot quicker. learn to drive what you got then improve your driving then your car

manic

[dannygti]

Originally Posted by manic

Loose weight out the car and off the driver. get it corner weighter properly. spend as much as you want. but the main thi g is being able to drive the thing. look at touring car. all drivers are there cos of there wallet. i would highly advise getting driver tuition and you will go alot quicker. learn to drive what you got then improve your driving then your car

manic

Whilst I agree with you, what happens if someone can drive very well?
Maybe improving the car inspires confidence to drive faster.. Then it's worthwhile.

And I believe some of the touring car drivers to be awesome! They may not be at the level of f1 drivers but a lot of them are pretty talented

[manic]

Oh not saying they cant drive. but now yo drive in touring car its money. in the 90s it was tallant that got you there.
i agree to move the car on in spec with the driving standard. how many times on track dats have people veen stuck behind bmw m3 mercs etc . for example they come flying past you down the donnington start finish. in mirrow signal menouver and feed the wheel threw hollywood and down ceainers.
as stated under body improvements work at 2" ground clearance and less. so a flat floor on a saxo is more a case of look what i can do. not look what it accually does

[dannygti]

The 2" and less ground clearance only really applies for serious downforce.. There are many improvements to be made for cars at higher ride height.. The gereal rule is the lower the more efficient but that doesn't mean cleaning up the air won't make a difference at higher ride heights.

I know of a fair few hatchbacks that have transformed the car due to aero mods alone.. These are successful cars in race series.

[axsaxoman]

getting it low does not create down force ,but cuts the drag and if you get it low enough and a tunnel you can get a suction effect -but the ride height needs to be far lowerer than you can get with a saxo to have any effect

You'll actually gain more by being the first man on the throttle into a straight

If you are last man on the brakes and do so in a controlled manner ,then you will be first out of the corner as well,as as for getting back on the throttle --it should never be totally off through the corner anyway
the process is throttle eased/off .brakes on ,back on he gas -a balanced amount ,turn in and then only apply more when you can without having to back off again

What is that based on?
Opinion or theory?
The theory I have read says otherwise.
it is based on actual trial and error --we made total underside of our ax race car flat + small tunnel at rear moved engine to allow lower ride height and keep drive shafts straight ,which also lowered C of G--difference was not noticable ,other than brakes got hotter ---you cannot get high enough speeds for any distance to make a real difference to lap times --and all things that crerate downforcetake engine power to make the downforce
better to concentrate on gearing / weight /driver /suspension set-up + corner weights
if you cannot get to at least max bhp rpm on longest straingt in top gear+ ideally very close to rev limter --then you are loosing lots of time
drop gearing by 20% + you have 20% more bhp at wheels

[dannygti]

I agree with a lot you say there John but you have to appreciate a lot have people have moved on in terms of power compaired to your 100hp 8v ax's.. Even your NA 16v TU's are making 200hp+... And some of us have twice that power again in the later gears.

I've gathered a collection of pictures of some of the fastest fwd in the world.. Championship/record breaking cars... And all these have significant aero work.

Agree'd that if you want to add downforce then maybe something that's geared to little over 100mph or with less than 150hp it will be worthwhile concentrating on the things you have mentioned..
But I believe with the Saxo/106 a simple mod in reduction of drag can help keep the car a little more stable through higher speed corners

Interesting debate...

[106maxi]

What circuit were you trialling the flat floor on, and did the driver's feedback correlate with the lap times?
From what I've read it's an area that needs to be completed as a package, ie front splitter and rear spoiler/ wing, flat floor and rear diffuser etc. They all go hand in hand to maintain the balance of the car.

If you are last man on the brakes and do so in a controlled manner ,then you will be first out of the corner as well,as as for getting back on the throttle --it should never be totally off through the corner anyway
the process is throttle eased/off .brakes on ,back on he gas -a balanced amount ,turn in and then only apply more when you can without having to back off again

If you were on the throttle earlier you will be carrying more speed along the straight. As a consequence you will probably have to be on the brakes earlier.
Anyway, I think we are both pushing against an open door and being pedantic.

(PS There was some Brazilian geezer who would disagree with your throttle control theory. He was half decent too)

There are aero benefits to be had on any car.
Be it reducing drag or increasing downforce- it all helps, and a lot of it can be done for cheap/ free.

Here's a video of the previously mentioned Brazilian geezer
Brazilian Fella

[KamRacing]

Originally Posted by 106maxi

(PS There was some Brazilian geezer who would disagree with your throttle control theory. He was half decent too)

I dont see him driving a fwd car. Different methods of driving.

Oh and the BTCC and WTCC cars have a rather a lot of aero development.

[manic]

One thing i was told. was to reduce the amount of air going threw the rad. down to a level that still cools effectively. cos any more than that is just cousing an air brake effect on the front of the engine . so channel enough threw the rad then the rest you block in an aerodynamic fasion.
so been looking at saloon cars of different specs eg wtcc.btcc britcar etc and they do seam to block the front grills off to reduck air flow in to the engine bay

[KamRacing]

I would say reducing lift should be the main concern for people rather than active downforce. Allowing air to escape the enginebay and wheelarches will create a more stable car at high speed.

[axsaxoman]

and if you notice the rwd car he is driving --he is making the rear wheels spin to point the front end where he wants it --try that on a fwd car and you will be in the barrier very quickly --
this man was so good at car control that he is dead!!!!
If we are going to use ex F1 drivers then
i,ll listen to jackie stewart --still alive and still quick
his wise words are simple
"do not apply any more throttle in the corner until you are sure you will not have to remove it when exiting corner "
progressive application whilst balancing car on limit of traction increasing it as you reach the apex and have a controlled "drift" out of the corner .

[axsaxoman]

sennas accident is actually a good example of over driving + effect of erao devices
he hit a bump in the road --car became slightly airbourne --the areo devices stopped working (not being sucked to ground --car became light on front so the tyres could not grip and it floated -no turn in so it went striaght on
I know this will start agruments --but thats what i got from watching the footage
I think same thing only worse happened to a mercedes a few years back and that did a loop di loop
and nas car s now have a loose lid the roof to stop the same thing happening --but they are doing 200mph ,not 100 mph ,and on most of track the time your speed will be between 50 -80mph .so to get erao devices to work at those speeds is very hard if they are not going to compromise the top end as well
last time I SAW DATA LOGGING FROM A TOURING CAR AT KNOCKHILL IT WAS GEARED FRO 135MPH ON THE REV LIMITER and it never quite reached that

you make much more lap time by accelerating quicker between corners than having a high top end gearing
areo decices are fine when the car doesn,t leave the road
a tin top driven agrresivly will never have all four wheels on the ground in alot of corners --so areo devices can,t work properly

[KamRacing]

I dont think top level tin tops use the aero so much for the corners, rather as a method of hitting higher terminal speeds in the straights, or giving the car more stability at high speeds.

[Mochachino]

Well after the results of the weight saving and aero changes to the Integra I would be quite happy and follow suit.

Over a whole second saved on the 1/4 mile
Almost 2 seconds saved on 0-60
And the MPG increase too.

As Danny said, alot of us aint in 100bhp tins anymore and I only posted this for peoples interest lol, not specifically for saxos! I could post some interesting facts on F1 cars but I wouldnt expect you to tell me why they wouldnt work on a saxo lol DRS is nice and this is why it works, on a saxo though? lol