Toad's Lifeline - Saxo Cup front suspension purchased! - Page 108 - Saxperience

willsy · 26th October 2009, 19:52

looking and sounding absolutely insane Dave

glad things have finally gone to plan for you

Got a question for you in relation to the TB's - i ordered some a few weeks ago and requested a 60mm ram pipe instead of the 40mm one which is normally sent out

Ive had a PM from John today to double check that 60mm is what i want before sorting out the order.

Judging from the pics there does seem to be plenty of room to still get a filter in should i wish to, so wouldnt think the extra 20mm would be a problem

Just looking for some thoughts, have just PM'ed John also for his thoughts too?

AT_Power · 26th October 2009, 19:54

Looks good Dave,

I would certainly run a filter though. Sock filters can rob power as they have too small filtration area, but a proper sausage type won't affect the power at all. At the end of the day you wouldn't want to loose another engine, and even if you loose 3bhp running sock filters, you will loose 3bhp over time from damage to the engine. The dirt in the air will score the bores and get blown into the oil turning it into a mild grinding paste. It just isn't worth it on anything other than a purpose drag car that gets run for minutes between engine builds and makes 1000+bhp. The ITG JC40 that I would reccomend for fitment supports around 415bhp

John.

AT_Power · 26th October 2009, 20:04

Hi Willsy,

I think if you look at the spread of torque that Dave is getting is suggests that the length is fine with 40mm to me. You would probably need to start altering the exhaust manifold to get benefits from much longer induction length. But I haven't seen anyone try this as yet so I can't give you a definate sorry. You can either at the end of the day, but it will just longer to get the 60mm ones sorted out as we only have silver ones left

P.S. the last customer to build a 2.0 duratec with our DTH 42mm (the next size up from yours) made 305bhp. More than it did with a custom manifold and 50mm bodies, or 45mm DTH variety on offer from someone else. I'm a bit of a duratec fan as they sound and go really well and are lightweight too. Great engine

</shamless plug>

KamRacing · 26th October 2009, 22:43

but with induction length you are not necessarily chasing peak figures so its not the whole story. A longer pipe might give a bit more in the midrange and still keep top end. The only way to really tell is trial and error on a rolling road.

willsy · 26th October 2009, 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

but with induction length you are not necessarily chasing peak figures so its not the whole story. A longer pipe might give a bit more in the midrange and still keep top end. The only way to really tell is trial and error on a rolling road.

Cheers

Its more midrange which i require. Top end is already more than adequate

So with that in mind ive decided to stick with opting for 20mm extra on the ram pipe length (60mm instead of 40mm) its a small difference, but one which willl still enable me to comfortably run a filter

Shall see if it makes any difference however small. Afterall someones bound to want to try some different lengths eventually

Sorrry for the hi-jack Dave, are you coming along to the WM Rolling road day on 7th November? Its high on my list of priorities of things to look at and be nosey with

Toad · 27th October 2009, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackman

I seen the car and engine when i was up there!

Really awesome build! and Troy is a top bloke!

Yeah, couldn't ask for more from him. He was always happy to spend time and explain things in good detail to me. Proper good fella.

Toad · 27th October 2009, 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewisimo

Ah didn't see your battery dude! Filter won't kill power either if you get a decent one, that's a bit of a phalisy mate. You may loose about 3bhp, but i'd be running one if I had the space to, which you do. Makes sense to protect your investment geez! As for the streamline thing, well you pays for quality dude!

I'll possibly test air boxes on the rollers... Troy was telling me about how much they kill power. Especially the likes of a PiperX one. You have to have it perfectly done not to lose any power.

I won't be painting the bodies black. They're silver for a reason mate

You want them to stay as cold as possible - black being the worst colour you could actually paint them. lol.

Toad · 27th October 2009, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by willsy

looking and sounding absolutely insane Dave

glad things have finally gone to plan for you

Got a question for you in relation to the TB's - i ordered some a few weeks ago and requested a 60mm ram pipe instead of the 40mm one which is normally sent out

Ive had a PM from John today to double check that 60mm is what i want before sorting out the order.

Judging from the pics there does seem to be plenty of room to still get a filter in should i wish to, so wouldnt think the extra 20mm would be a problem

Just looking for some thoughts, have just PM'ed John also for his thoughts too?

Cheers bud.

Yeah, there's loads of room. An extra 20mm won't be an issue. But do you actually want to increase the length? Pug1Off didn't seem to think so. It might not make any difference, but as Matt at Pug1Off has now seen these bodies, I would give him a quick bell, and ask him if he thinks you should go for the extra 20mm. I think I know what he'll tell you though...

Toad · 27th October 2009, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by AT_Power

Looks good Dave,

I would certainly run a filter though. Sock filters can rob power as they have too small filtration area, but a proper sausage type won't affect the power at all. At the end of the day you wouldn't want to loose another engine, and even if you loose 3bhp running sock filters, you will loose 3bhp over time from damage to the engine. The dirt in the air will score the bores and get blown into the oil turning it into a mild grinding paste. It just isn't worth it on anything other than a purpose drag car that gets run for minutes between engine builds and makes 1000+bhp. The ITG JC40 that I would reccomend for fitment supports around 415bhp

John.

Trouble is, to get something which is right for the job is going to cost a lot, and I simply don't have the money. If any one has any ideas, please let me know.

Toad · 27th October 2009, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by willsy

Cheers

Its more midrange which i require. Top end is already more than adequate

So with that in mind ive decided to stick with opting for 20mm extra on the ram pipe length (60mm instead of 40mm) its a small difference, but one which willl still enable me to comfortably run a filter

Shall see if it makes any difference however small. Afterall someones bound to want to try some different lengths eventually

Sorrry for the hi-jack Dave, are you coming along to the WM Rolling road day on 7th November? Its high on my list of priorities of things to look at and be nosey with

I'll defo be there mate.

Do the ram pipe ends screw off easily? You could always borrow mine and when your car is getting mapped on the RR, you could see if it makes any difference changing them or not. Would be interesting for definate. I'd even consider doing a couple of runs to see if it makes any difference on my engine, not that I'm concerned, but it always fun to test different things.

AT_Power · 27th October 2009, 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

They're silver for a reason mate

You want them to stay as cold as possible - black being the worst colour you could actually paint them. lol.

I seriously doubt the colour will affect inlet temperatures at all. The air is moving incredibly quickly through them. It doesn't really have time to heat up. If the air is going through, say the radiator before hand then that will warm the air up. If being black was that effective at loosing heat into the air, aluminium radiators and intercoolers would be anodised black too

John.

Toad · 27th October 2009, 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AT_Power

I seriously doubt the colour will affect inlet temperatures at all. The air is moving incredibly quickly through them. It doesn't really have time to heat up. If the air is going through, say the radiator before hand then that will warm the air up. If being black was that effective at loosing heat into the air, aluminium radiators and intercoolers would be anodised black too

John.

Hehe. Racing rads are black.

If you take your rad to a company which specialises in making rads for race cars, they will paint it black.

AT_Power · 27th October 2009, 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Hehe. Racing rads are black.

If you take your rad to a company which specialises in making rads for race cars, they will paint it black.

It's a gimmick. honestly,

I've got experience with countless types of race cars - non of them had black radiators. If you do the maths, the layer of black paint acts as an insulation and is worse for heat transfer than the bare metal.

John.

Ferg · 27th October 2009, 10:13

Take me out for spin when it's all bedded in Dave?

Toad · 27th October 2009, 10:16

OK, fair enough. But it does go against the laws of physics.

I'm still gonna keep the TBs alu silver.

I love the look of them as they are.

Toad · 27th October 2009, 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferg

Take me out for spin when it's all bedded in Dave?

It's done mate.

Just need an oil cooler, otherwise I have to go steady quite a lot and let things cool down.

Ferg · 27th October 2009, 12:30

Ok awesome, looking forward to seeing it on track in the near future.

Toad · 27th October 2009, 13:12

Cheers dude. You can have a go anytime

KamRacing · 27th October 2009, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

OK, fair enough. But it does go against the laws of physics.

I'm still gonna keep the TBs alu silver.

I love the look of them as they are.

surely black is to do with sunlight only? Now its been a while but black as a colour absorbs all light wavelengths (and therefore energy) rather than reflecting any wavelengths back. Most absorbed energy will convert to heat.

KamRacing · 27th October 2009, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Trouble is, to get something which is right for the job is going to cost a lot, and I simply don't have the money. If any one has any ideas, please let me know.

Pipercross make some big filters to fit over the throttlebodies, and they are not too expensive. I dont see you getting much gains with an enclosed airbox without the right development to get the right airflow to each throttlebody. When on the move engine bay temperatures are not massively greater than ambient, but it would be worth making sure the exhaust is isolated well, or get some direct airfeeds to the back of the enginebay.

Kev