Brother can't get quote under 4k wtf :S

[devilsadvocate]

Originally Posted by j_a_lyons

lol well said mate! The only problem is direct line told us they won't insure him think my mum must hav given away the fact he'd drive it more! But we cud still technically just purchase the £1900 a year quote online but not sure wot they'd do about it because of the phone conversation. Sounds expensive but compared to other quotes its not too bad and we'd take it. Fucking ridiculous this tbh.

Fucking horray for Direct Line, finally an insurance company with some sence and balls!

I am not gonna tear into you regarding fronting as you clearly know what you are doing, however do you know the potential implications.

Before outrage_uk goes into a hissy fit, what I am saying is my own opinion which I am entitled too and is backed up with facts!!

If you crash (hopefully you dont), the insurance company will assign a claims advisor to your claim and he/she will look over your policy.
Insurance companies want to avoid paying out at all costs so the first thing they will do is see a much older driver as the policyholder and his/her son as the additional driver
RED FLAG!!!

They will then arrange a visit to see the car (to check for damage AND mods) and speak to you. A lot of questions will follow and these people are trained at trying to get people to reveal something that will invalidate thier policy (such as fronting).
If they decide you are fronting (proof is irrelevant), its thier choice as to whether the void your policy and you will be left to foot the bill, for your car and anything you hit (people, vehicles or objects)

People CAN and HAVE been caught out with fronting, posts are on here all about it.

Most people do get away with it I agree, is it worth the risk though?
Thats for you to decide buddy

As I said before, insurance is about the risk you pose
Most people say, 4k insurance on a 500 quid car WFT??
What if you hit a 50k Merc...or a child and cause them a disibility?
Are you going to pay for the care of a child for the rest of its life, I doubt it, the insurance company will.....IF you have valid insurance, which technically you don't

Fronting IS Illegal, it is obtaining insurance cover by deception!

Now I await a half arsed, non factual reply from outrage_uk

[Gary-VTR]

I see the Sax-p insurance police are at large again.

@j_a_lyons, your best bet is to call Admiral, Elephant or Bell direct. They'll help you get the insurance cost down as low as possible, and you can haggle. Also do it towards the end of the month, as the sales team will have targets to meet, so will be more likely to cut you a better deal so they reach those targets.

I recently called up Admiral, and the CSA suggested going fully comp, then whacking up the excess for all drivers, which could make it cheaper than on tpft.

Put your annual mileage as low as realistically possible, then increase it as you get close to the limit. No point paying for mileage you aren't going to use.

Add as many named drivers to the policy as you can - Dad, Mum, Grandparents, Aunties, etc. With their permission of course.

Also go for a 10-month accelerator. That way your premium will only be the cost of 10 months, rather than 12. On a £4k policy, that's a solid £660 saving.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Gary-VTR

I see the Sax-p insurance police are at large again.

@j_a_lyons, your best bet is to call Admiral, Elephant or Bell direct. They'll help you get the insurance cost down as low as possible, and you can haggle. Also do it towards the end of the month, as the sales team will have targets to meet, so will be more likely to cut you a better deal so they reach those targets.

I recently called up Admiral, and the CSA suggested going fully comp, then whacking up the excess for all drivers, which could make it cheaper than on tpft.

Put your annual mileage as low as realistically possible, then increase it as you get close to the limit. No point paying for mileage you aren't going to use.

Add as many named drivers to the policy as you can - Dad, Mum, Grandparents, Aunties, etc. With their permission of course.

Also go for a 10-month accelerator. That way your premium will only be the cost of 10 months, rather than 12. On a £4k policy, that's a solid £660 saving.

Problem with this is that other insurers generally won't recognise it as a years no claims, so unless you stick to that company your gonna be shooting yourself in the foot in the long run.

[outrage_uk]

Ha ha

I wont have a hissy fit, we're both trying to help people, just with a different views/opinions/experiences on insurance.

In fairness, to me, it sounds like your quite disappointed that when you look back and realise how much you could have saved over the years... it would have paid for a deposit on a house or a proper car... anyway...

Here's my longgg tale;

New to the driving game, me and my dad tried insurance companies and couldn't believe the quotes - £2000ish - which was ridiculous at the time.
Finally got a quote from Tesco - explained it to us - and told us the only realistic way to insure young drivers is in a parents name, which we did. £642. My dad was still pissed off helping me out with this

When I was 18, a silly cow decided to crash my car and write it off.
It was modded abit - exhaust, alloys, K&N, alarm.
The car was in registered in my name.
Policy was in my dads name as a main driver, me as a named driver - he never used it.
^^^
Now devil I know you will have kittens about that, but thats how it was.
Anyway, they took my car, rang me up and complained about the mods, gave me a shit valuation saying scrap value, beyond repair blah blah... i sent off print outs from autotrader of similar cars - sent it back with my V5 and MOT's etc... They rang up complained about the V5 in my name not my dads.. Anyway they paid me out, lower than i wanted - but everything dandy. 3 Months later I got a letter from some women saying she had bought my car have I got any spare keys and alarm fobs. I sent her them but said your you kindly let me know how much you paid and where it was from and did you know it was a 'total loss' according to my insurance. Well the bottom line was she paid nearly double what I got paid out and was not aware that it was a Cat C damaged car! So thats the tale on car #1.

3 Years later same kind of set up, but a standard car and 'my dad' had gained 3 years NCD on the policy i was using. Some piss head crashed into back of it. My insurance took it, pissed and moaned about it been registered in my name and said it was modified because of the standard GSI front bumper? Anyway after a shit valuation I had to send off autotrader print outs and proof of value like receipts etc. "Its a total loss blah blah". Getting no where so I was forced to accept £2000 less than it was worth - no doubt they could make another profit. So, even though it was not my fault - I lost out. OK I kept 'my' 3 NCD, but I lost my car and got ripped off.

So as you can see, in my experience, ive broke all the 'fronting' rules and have been paid out because the bastards will always make a profit on you. Maybe I got lucky, I dunno but its paid off for me. I would rather go to Court for driving without insurance than pay these robbing twats more than I feel they deserve.

OK, you say what if some lad at 17 goes hits a £80,000 car, whats 4k to that? Well there are (as of 2003-probably a lot more now) 32 million cars in the UK. If everyone paid a reasonable amount for insurance - as in £400, that would be £12,800,000,000. Lets say there are 100 insurance companies in the UK - there are probably loads more but 100 should be a set limit to where there is competition and choice. That would leave each company an annual income of £128,000,000. So with that £128million they get each year, they could afford to pay for the £80,000 car (and the whiplash claims).

I know its bullshit and will never happen because its worked out on risk factors such as occupation and postcodes, but you get the idea. Some pay £300, some pay £500.

There needs to be a justifiable reason to charge someone 4 thousand pounds for basically piece of mind if you hurt someone (third party). As said - my thoughts on TPF&T and Comprehensive is they're there just to rip you off. Just been young should not be a reason. There are terrible drivers all over (*cough* women, and certainly old people) and these don't pay thousands more. Maybe I shouldn't stereotype - but neither should insurance.

I will try anything to get insurance as cheap as I can - now fortunately I can afford to pay for a policy in my own name because it's a reasonable amount - not thousands - but I would never feel sorry for an insurance company and think "oh if I hit someone and hurt them the poor insurance company will loose out" (obviously id be more concerned about the accident anyway).

As said in my previous post, what you appear to be saying is;

If insurance companies decide they do not want to pay for your claim (which is their legal duty) - they can decide if you are or are not (in their opinion) the 'main driver' (to which, there is no definition) and the only proof they have is by asking your neighbours and/or checking if you have in your possession another car in your household?

So to summarise, I conclude; Insurance is legalised fraud, so the cheaper you can get it the better - if that means 'manipulating' their term of 'main driver' then so be it. It's worked for me and saved thousands.

People need to make up their own mind, but im afraid, just as insurance will continue to rip young drivers off, young drivers will manipulate the system to get a realistic insurance premium.

[devilsadvocate]

Fair play, I can indeed see where you are coming from, I just think people need to understand the risks of Fronting.

I do understand that you got away with it but not everyone does.

I am by no means sticking up for insurance companies, I am well aware they make lots and lots of profit...why else would they bother?

I just dont want everybody thinking that fronting is a good idea.
The more people that front, the more insurance companies will begin to notice and will start clamping down on it I am sure.

Whats to stop them saying that nobody under 21 can be a named driver?

What happens if the police pull you over and start asking questions, they can be arses sometimes and a bit of digging might uncover you are fronting and they have up on no insurance charges....how much will your insurance be after that?

In the long run, technically people who front are in fact losing out because they 'generally' dont get no claims as an addition driver with most companies and the ones that give no claims to named drivers will likely be the most expensive.

I am glad that I didnt front, means I have 3 years no claims.
If I had, my insurance would be 2.5x what it is now

I do very much understand that a LOT of young drivers front, its the way of the world, how many 17 year olds have 4k?
I dont have 4k to spend on insurance

I just think its wrong to be advocating it as if it is ok, 17 year olds are wet behind the ears and take things on forums as the truth and dont know any better.
People need to know the facts and then make thier own decisions

Unfortunately one of the reasons insurance is so high is due to so manu uninsured drivers on the roads amonst other things

[BazzaC]

I deal with this a lot from day to day and I have done numerous quotes for youngsters on £500 1.0L cars that over £3-4k.

I can honestly say I see why they do it and if they can get away with it, why shouldnt they? But is it worth the risk of getting caught, only they can make that decision.



Quick question Outrage...

So now you have all the no claims etc. and your insurance is reasonable, would you not like it even cheaper?

If all the people fronting and doing other things to manipulate insurance were just playing by the book, the honest people like yourself may have even cheaper insurance right?

[outrage_uk]

Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

Whats to stop them saying that nobody under 21 can be a named driver?

If they were that concerned about 'fronting' then this is what they would do.

The fact young named drivers are allowed surely says; "we will let you do it - take your £1200 but if you try to claim, we will make it as hard as we can and try avoid paying".

Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

What happens if the police pull you over and start asking questions, they can be arses sometimes and a bit of digging might uncover you are fronting and they have up on no insurance charges....how much will your insurance be after that?

I have been stopped well over 50+ times over the years, mainly because of the times I drive (ive been nocturnal since i was about 14). They have never once questioned the legality of the named drivers. They run an MID check and 'pass named drivers' over the radio, your on the list, so your free to carry on. Like myself and others keep pointing out, what an insurance company defines as a 'main driver' is definitely a black hole. They could try and gather some proof of you breaking the terms and conditions of what they class as a 'main driver' but as in my policy documents, there is no definition, so they could say what they like, it could never be proven. In any case, this would constitute a Civil, not a Criminal Case. Therefore unless you would admit to, or the police gather real evidence such as a recorded conversation between you and your parents saying "dad, im getting the insurance in your name with me as a named driver but you wont ever drive it". - there would never be a Criminal offence such as; "Obtaining property by deception - namely a Certificate of Motor Insurance." or; "Driving without insurance against third party contrary to Section 143 of the Road Traffic Act 1988." - mealy a civil case of insurance company vs you.

Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

I am glad that I didnt front, means I have 3 years no claims.
If I had, my insurance would be 2.5x what it is now

I still find this hard to believe. When your 25+ you can get insured on a 'proper car' (Group 14+) with 0 years NCD in your own name for less than £500 - then just build your NCD up from there. So your talking maybe a £100 difference than with 6 years NCD - but its not £1000+! Whats the rush from when your 17? The ridiculous cost of insurance from a young age far out weighs the saving you make from your NCD. Remember that after 9 years NCD you dont get a bigger discount anyway, infact some companies its only 5 years.

I think we both agree, in an ideal world car insurance should be in your own name out right (as is mine now) but in reality, it just can not happen with prices as they are, and until the FSA step in, or insurance companies stop offering polices allowing young named drivers - 'fronting' is here to stay, and I for one, im afraid, are all in favour of it.

[outrage_uk]

Originally Posted by BazzaC

Quick question Outrage...

So now you have all the no claims etc. and your insurance is reasonable, would you not like it even cheaper?

If all the people fronting and doing other things to manipulate insurance were just playing by the book, the honest people like yourself may have even cheaper insurance right?

I still don't see why younger lads on their mum and dads policies would make a difference to us (outright policy holders).

Lets not forget insurance companies are a massive industry. Not because they rip young drivers off, but the volume of customers. I wont drone on about it cos ive mentioned it above, but millions of customers paying an average of a few hundred quid is the bread and butter of the revenue, the odd young driver is the Christmas pudding.

I would personally be happy to pay an extra 10% on my policy to ensure that my son (hopefully... one day ) is not priced out of driving, because I (as a parent) would end up fitting the bill for it anyway. And 10% off everyone would be more than enough to cut young drivers premiums.

The whole thing pisses me off to be honest, its all driven off greed because they get away with it, its all too easy.

One day some rich kid with a rich parent will get the ball rolling to get things changed. I hope so anyway

[mlawlan69]

Outrage may have swayed me there, I haven't even looked into it (fronting) but im getting bored of the 4k quotes on a vtr in my name. Even adding my dad who has been driving solid 21 years only drops it 300 adding my mum who has driven 5 years drops it 500.... I find it disgusting they are allowed to do this based on sex , imagine if it was based on race... Exactly

[Gary-VTR]

Originally Posted by mlawlan69

Outrage may have swayed me there, I haven't even looked into it (fronting) but im getting bored of the 4k quotes on a vtr in my name. Even adding my dad who has been driving solid 21 years only drops it 300 adding my mum who has driven 5 years drops it 500.... I find it disgusting they are allowed to do this based on sex , imagine if it was based on race... Exactly

To further this point, my gf passed her test this week so I get her some quotes..

VTR, 0 NCB, 0 experience, 20 years old - £900 tpft.
VTS, " - £1400 tpft
Honda Integra Type-R, " - £2400

Lucky lady

[outrage_uk]

These quote machines must see different women drivers to what I see out there

[KamRacing]

sell the corsa and buy a car that is not popular with young drivers. This will massively drop the premium.

[CHIP]

Originally Posted by KamRacing

sell the corsa and buy a car that is not popular with young drivers. This will massively drop the premium.

Fair point. Something a grandad or your mum would drive can help sometimes.

[outrage_uk]

This needs to go back to topic... poor J A Lyons.. nicked his thread ... hope you got your bros insurance sorted buddy, whatever you decided to do

[j_a_lyons]

Think wot we're gonna have to do is sell him my car he said he'd give me £1900 for it as its in rly good con and ive put alloys on it new road tax etc and im doing him a massive favour. My dad will just say to direct line that he's changing the named driver to my brother as im going off to get my own car. Then the insurance wont b too bad for him, doesnt look suspicious and i'll hav £1900 to spend on a decent car and because im 21 with almost 3 years driving experience i can get my own fully comp quote for about £1200 to £1400 a year which isnt horrendous.

[j_a_lyons]

I got some prices for me that are roughly:

furio: 1500 a year
vtr 1700 a year
corsa 1.2 1300-1400 a year
corsa 1.0 1100
clio 1.2 dynamique 1400 a year.

All fully comp as it seems to be cheaper anyway for some reason and about £400 excess, breakdown cover and even a courtesy car lol. I'm a bit gutted I have to pay out more but otherwise my brother has to pay £6000 a year which isn't rly fair because my dad can just take me off and put him on for about £2000 a year which for a new driver isn't that bad :O and he'll hav a nice vtr lookalike furio as his first car. That way they can't say anything either because as far as they're aware i've gone off to get my own insurance and my brother is going on my dads saxo to drive it sometimes.

[demon_dan]

Dragging this up again, my brother's been trying to get quotes for his insurance on a 1.0 saxo. Did an online comparison, nothing under 4k phoned up a few places, including Admiral who I'm with, still nothing, cheapest we got down to was 3.8k tpft. We then did it with my grandma as owner of the car and him as named driver. I've never fronted before, always had my own insurance and on a 10 month policy I now have 3yrs no claims and I'm 19. Anyway, rang round some places again as it came up as £300 fully comp for her on her own (she has no no claims as she has a licence but doesn't own or drive a car) but with my brother on, it shot up again to nearly 4k. The insurers said it's specifically to cut down on fronting, they know it happens and the only way to stop it is to make it roughly the same price to have your own car and insurance as it is to be a named driver ...that way it's not worth fronting.
He now has a DT125, it's all he can afford to run. It takes the piss tbh, he's still at 6th form and even though he has a weekend job, he can't fork out that much for insurance, it's ridiculous.

[_-john-_]

Disgusting isn't it. Literally makes my blood boil at how expensive something like a 1 litre is for young drivers now, no wonder they think 'fuck it' and go get a cheap rattly vts instead

[Ramigojag]

im 19 with 0 no claims bonus and using admiral multi car for a vtr on my own policy i pay 1085, id have a look into multicar if tehres more than 2 cars