Really strange noises, help needed please. - Saxperience

Outdoorsman · 26th August 2012, 12:25

Hi everyone, Thanks for taking the time to read this missive

I'm going to paste a question I've asked on my facebook page, bear with me please, the reasons for this will become apparent

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A question for my mechanically minded compadres ...... feel free to share.

OK a bit long winded but necessarily so, as you'll discover.

I currently drive a Citroen Saxo 1.1 .. 51 reg (2002) (stop giggling at the back!) I've had it for about 6 months now and ever since I have it's had the following symptoms.

When she's cold, whenever I apply the brakes, the front left hand wheel makes a kind of rhythmic rumbling, graunching, knocking sound. While cold, its there but not too noisy, as it warms up however (ie the more / further I drive) the worse it gets until after about 30 miles or so, the noise is constant and not just when I apply the breaks.

Initially I thought this had to be a warped brake disc so I whipped the wheel off only to discover that both discs and pads were brand new. This led me to believe that the previous owner had encountered said symptoms and had attempted to eradicate them. So, I had a word with a mechanic friend who immediately said "CV joint mate" ... so off i went and purchased a new CV joint, (which on this car happens to be attached to the drive shaft :o/ )
and had it expertly fitted by our local mechanic, and a brilliant job he did too!

Sadly however, the symptoms persist :o/ .......... "Wishbone" says my mate ... so off I trot, purchase a new wishbone and have that expertly fitted my #2 son, ............ No change ... so, not the brakes, not the CV joint, not the drive shaft, not the wishbone ...... my next thought was bearings but I quickly dismissed that line of inquiry as I'm pretty sure that with all the miles I've done, the wheel would have fallen off by now!!

So my clever friends ... any idieas as to what could be causing this? please remember, the only things that cause the symptoms to appear when cold is applying the brakes, or moving with the steering at full lock, when warm the symptoms are constant. The only thing I can add is that the "knocking / grinding" is heavily transmitted through the break pedal but not the steering.

Thanks for reading, I'm getting to the stage where I really cannot spend much more on this vehicle as the tax and mot are both due next month :o(

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OK, since posting the above, I have ordered new pads and discs, bearings and gear oil. I'm hoping they'll arrive Tuesday. After ordering however, one of my friends posted this in reply ....

from a forum.."At last, I have solved the puzzle. It would appear that my Saxo is one of the first Mk2 versions. The Mk2 drive shafts are slightly longer and more importantly have a conical inner face which sits in the hub, which the Mk1 does not have. When the Mk1 drive shaft is fitted to a Mk2 hub, the outer edge of the CV joint hits directly on the bearing inner face leaving a gap between the inner hub splined edge and the drive shaft allowing the hub to work up and down as it is unsecured. In a very short space of time the wheel bearing collapses, which mine did."

So, my question is twofold ... A) do you guys think he's right and this is my problem, and B) how on earth do I find out if my jalopy is a MkI or a MkII?
She's on a VE51 plate but the log book says year of first registration 07-02-2002.

Thanks for your patients, any help would be much appreciated!!

jonnyhardman · 28th August 2012, 00:18

If your saxo is 2002 then it's a MK2.

Yasuraka · 28th August 2012, 18:16

I have a similar problem fella. I've had the 2 driveshafts changed, both the wishbones, both the strut mounts (when I replaced the springs) and I still get this massive knock or pop noise when I turn a corner. Going over bumps its horrible the steering goes mental and its really a frightening thing to encounter at speed. At the MOT the mechanic said it was all good to go and the only thing I would be looking at perhaps is the drop links? and possibly the track rod ends. Cheap as hell I notice from eurocarparts, no clue on fitting details as I'm a cabbage with cars. So Ill leave it with drop links or track rod ends (or hell maybe both?)

Perhaps some of the more clued up folks can drop some gems in on this.

Outdoorsman · 30th August 2012, 13:26

UPDATE

Thanks to jonnyhardman & Yasuraka for the input, all taken on board for further investigation. (we seem to be two cabbages in the same patch Yas

)

OK so I have now replaced the discs and pads with brand new ones and low and behold, success. straight away I thought ahh, whoever replaced the discs before must have dropped the car off the jack and bent the disc. Job done .......

Sadly, not so

...... it cured the problem in as much as the grinding, graunching, knocking noise doesn't happen at all when cold, not even when applying the brakes now, but as soon as the car warms up (approx 5 / 10 miles) as soon as I apply the brakes its all back. Admittedly nowhere near as bad as it was, and the vibration is a lot less pronounced but its back never the less.

So, I have now replaced the driveshaft (non power steering) the wishbone, the UJ, the discs and the pads. Everything down there seems very tight and there is very little or no free play in any of the joints / shafts / calipers track rods etc.

I'm at my wits end now as to what on earth this could be and the MoT is looming

I will investigate the drop ends (when I find out what they are) and TRE's next, though I'm not hopeful as the problem only occurs during braking.
Does anyone have any other ideas?

Oh apologies for the delay in some of my replies by the way, it seems that the email notification system isn't working for me :o(

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. ODM

Outdoorsman · 3rd September 2012, 18:09

Update .... have just replaced the bearings, no change :o( ... really am running out of ideas now.

Mr_P · 3rd September 2012, 18:54

Seeing as new discs and pads improved it for a while. New bearing did nothing. I'm leaning towards a buckled/warped hub and/or fucked caliper.

blackie_2k5 · 3rd September 2012, 18:57

has it got worse since you changed the discs and pads?

does the car have after market alloys?

do the brakes work properly

and can you get a video of the noise..both cold and hot

this will help alot

blackie_2k5 · 3rd September 2012, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_P

Seeing as new discs and pads improved it for a while. New bearing did nothing. I'm leaning towards a buckled/warped hub and/or fucked caliper.

was thinking this hence..has it got worse lol

could also be missing the spigot ring if the alloys arent standard

dogey brake servo...could have had a diff strut or hub on from an older car..so even the correct NEW shaft would be the same

have you checked the caliper bolts arent loose?

Outdoorsman · 3rd September 2012, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

has it got worse since you changed the discs and pads?

does the car have after market alloys?

do the brakes work properly

and can you get a video of the noise..both cold and hot

this will help alot

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

was thinking this hence..has it got worse lol

could also be missing the spigot ring if the alloys arent standard

dogey brake servo...could have had a diff strut or hub on from an older car..so even the correct NEW shaft would be the same

have you checked the caliper bolts arent loose?

Ok thanks for the replies folks from the beginning then,....

The noise and vibration has in itself got a lot quieter and softer, however, after about 10 miles, they are now both permanent, as in not only when brakes are applied as was the case initially.

Wheels are standard Saxo factory issue.

The brakes work fine although a little spongy despite having bled them twice since changing the pads n discs.

I have just looked at the old pads again and i've noticed that there is quite a lot of uneven wear on the outside pad, in as much as the front leading edge and rear ends of the pad almost look like its been shaved off at a 45deg angle. The front edge being much worse than the rear presumably as one brakes much ore often going forwards than backwards. Would this indicate that the pad is not getting pushed straight onto the disc?

My son is going to have the calliper off for me tomorrow, I'm going to tale it into the workshop, strip it down and clean / polish / grease up everything I can find.

I'll take some pics of the pads tomorrow and if refurbishing the calliper doesn't work, I'll take some sound recordings of the noise ... then I'll have to try to remember how to post such things on forums, it's been a long time since I was a forumite

Thanks again to all for your help and comments.

OM

bigezz · 3rd September 2012, 19:50

why did you bleed the brakes after fitting discs and pads?

Outdoorsman · 3rd September 2012, 20:25

Due to them being quite spongy, brake pedal goes half way to the floor before it starts to bite and nearly right to the floor if you want to stop so we thought a good bleeding might sort the problem. Also someone told my son that due to possible heat produced by the initial fault, the original fluid may have been spoiled.

The bleeding however didn't make any difference :/

Outdoorsman · 5th September 2012, 13:41

***update***

Outdoorsman · 5th September 2012, 13:52

OOPS, not sure what happened there, but here's the update anyway, I have the said FLH calliper in front of me, the main piston looks ok as does the dust cover but shouldn't the dust cover travel with the piston, concertina style? If so it's broken coz it doesn't :/

The two smaller pistons however look very marked and slightly pitted in places and both dust covers are knackered / split but I can't seem to get them off. Does anyone know how this works?

I have managed to remove the two small pistons without too much trouble but inside the slot they came out of, there seems to be a grooved metal sleeve that holds the rubber dust covers in place, and I just can't shift em, is there a nack / special removal tool to get these out?

My intention is to get a seal / dust boot replacement kit and refurb the calliper as I can't afford a new one. ......... unless anyone on here has a second hand one in GWO for sale?

Thanks all

Outdoorsman · 5th September 2012, 13:55

Oh also meant to say,, the main piston seems very tight, I had to use two larde screw drivers to lever it out enough to show the main tube of the piston but it's now well and truly stuck. should it be that tight, and how do I get the thing all the way out to replace the seals please?

Cheers

bosax · 5th September 2012, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

it's now well and truly stuck. should it be that tight, and how do I get the thing all the way out to replace the seals please?

Cheers

Footpump or 12v tyre pump, stick one of the adaptors up the flexi hose and get some air into it........... have caliper wrapped in cloth as the piston comes out with a bang.

As for the brakes on a 1.1.......crap at the best of times, had to stand on mine to get it to stop. Replace with VT* vented disks and calipers and you'll see a noticable difference.

Outdoorsman · 7th September 2012, 15:42

Okaaaayyy .... nearly there folks, thanks for putting up with all the numpty questions, you'd think a 52 year old survival instructor would know better

but hey, 'Mecanilals just ain't my thang' as our colonial cousins might say.

so the update, ordered and received this morning from a certain Crimson supplier a set of replacement seals / dust covers etc. for the calliper, having previously stripped / cleaned & polished the working parts, I greased up what needed greasing, fitted said kit and bingo, one calliper as good as new for the price of some seals and elbow grease.

fui, all seals were missing out of slider pistons and main piston seal was cracked)

ok now for the numpty question of the century

(don't laff) its been that long since I had the bloomin pads off, I'm not sure I remember how to put em back on proper like. Anyone possibly point me in the right direction of a photo / diagram as to how the pads sit in the calliper?

I ask because the only way I seem to be able to make them fit is offset ... like the flutes that go down the centre of the pads don't line up between inner and outer pad, and the gap at the end, rather than lining up either at the top or bottom of the calliper are also offset, inner pad has a gap at the top, outer at the bottom and call me pedantic but it just doesn't look right to me.

Problem I'm having is when I try to fit them so everything lines up, that stuipid little spacer, (the one the little pin goes in) won't fit under the lip of the pad

Thanks again for all the advice, and of course, your patients

Outdoorsman · 16th September 2012, 13:50

fitted the reworked calliper, still knockin

...... I give up, anyone wanna buy a Saxo with an almost completely re-built front end and knockin noise? :/

blackie_2k5 · 16th September 2012, 22:41

Post a video of the noise up so when can hear it

Outdoorsman · 28th April 2014, 10:27

I so forgot about this, Just thought I'd put a conclusion to the thread

After rebuilding almost the entire front end of the car, squeezing it through the MoT (I think the examiner took pity on me as he could see all the new parts) it still knocked

Anyway, long story short, turns out it was (despite various test results to the contrary, including some sort of strobe light test) that it was the actual disc / hub that was buckled because I changed it as a last resort and bingo, problem solved. (stands by for the crescendo of "told you so's")

A salutary lesson in over thinking something and relying too much on the results of test technology!

Thankfully, having repaired the fault I managed to sell it and actually get my money back, including initial purchase price

I am now back in my comfort zone of gas guzzling 4x4. I have to admit that my sojourn into the world of eco conscious motoring was not a happy one

Thanks to all for the input though

hope the thread helps others in the future,

Lessons? When the computer says no, don't believe it, it too can make mistakes

( or could it be that some garages don't know how to use their own test equipment? )

Wish you all safe and happy motoring