Bore wash -updated - Saxperience

blackie_2k5 · 19th July 2012, 21:43

right..if you dont have experience please dont post

as some may know im having issues with smoke on the over run after a top end rebuild due to a dropped valve

when i first got it back together and running there was no smoke but i knew the fueling was bad

after about 100 miles or so im getting smoke on the over run..at first i thought turbo but then dismissed this as its only on high vacuum it happens

then thought stem seals/guides or an oil ring..but its a rebuilt head that had no issues before..and rings were fine before

i havent actually done much yet as im at a cross roads at where the probs lie and whether to just replace the engine

when i put it back together it would not idle as id fixed all the inlet leaks i had..andy tried to sort my idle over the net..think he richened it up a bit lower down to get it to idle (i have no WB on at present so he was doing what he could over the net)

BUT...the car is massively over fuelling..its been running rich a while up top(4k or above)..but seems ALOT worse since the rebuild (it last got remapped with a hole in the boost pipe i was unaware of so when it was replaced it was a mile out) plan was remap asap soon as the engine was sorted again, but my clutch cable snapped 5 mins into the mapping session two weeks ago

i then realised the extent it was over fuelling the other day when i done a compression test.. all cylinders were about 180-190psi within 5 cranks so comp seems good!!

but the plugs were blacker then ive EVER seen a set..and had so much carbon build up i was surprised it was running at all!! ive only done about 500 miles since the rebuild at which point the plugs where fine

so where my current thinking is...

the oil im using is quite thin anyway (5/40) this was just temp to flush with a new filter after a few hundred miles till i developed the smoke!

(dont get smoke till car is warm) but is running so rich at the min it splutters like fuck till its warm... thinking the oil is being diluted to fuck and the vacuum is either pulling it past the stems or the rings??

the longer i drive it..the worse the smoke gets??

long read but id like some thoughts on the matter so a good back ground is needed

think this is my prob? im reluctant to waste a mapping session while the car is smoking the way it is..but dont wanna have to buy/sort an engine if it doesnt need one

jeffchiz · 19th July 2012, 22:22

probably np use to you at all but i had a nice bit of bore wash when my car was unmapped, drove it far too much and its destroyed my rings, my catch tank fills up reptty quickly and if i drive high in the rev range the oil comes out the dip stick and covers the botom of the bonent in oil

hoping to get a new bottom end as soon as i get paid then i can fianlly stop buying oil and having to stop cleaning my engine bay lol

dose your oil system pressurise?

blackie_2k5 · 19th July 2012, 22:28

i think it is mate..bore wash normally causes it

thats why im thinking this is my prob..it normally pushes the oil out of everywhere it can..my bottom end never used to breath well before but now i seem to have melted the plastic top on my dipstick..probs the hot fuel/oil vapour rotting it away with the crank case pressure..looks like it may be squirting vapours out of my oil fller cap as well..as there seems to be some oilly residue and dust stuck all round it

i think i may be ok if i get it mapped ASAP and run some thicker oil

thats what you should do for time being mate..thicker oil helps cars with worn rings

manic · 20th July 2012, 04:39

On my vtr it was well over fueling and diluting the oil and then also fill my catch tank too. my mechanic said this and that it will glaze the bores so you wont get a good seal resulting in more fuel going in the oil and oil being sucked past the rings.
the way to sort this is to fit new rings and hone the bore to roughen it up a bit.
hope this is not the case as its loads of work
does the car sit about for long periods of time. as the bores are slighly tapered the rings can get stuck in and this can also cause a slight slackness again resulting in oil being sucked past

manic

axsaxoman · 20th July 2012, 08:26

what you describe is typical of bore wash
I am guessing oil smells of petrol which makes the oil go thin
10-40 semi synthetic is correct oil for tu5 --not fully synthetic and not thinner
you can run thicker it will not cause a problem and will help with oil consumption
the reasons for using very thin oils is to cut down friction -- If you are boosted so that isn,t a measurable amount of extra drag ,you won,t even be revving very high with a turbo + extra pressure in cylinder from the boost will increase any "blow -by " dramatically
-

have you done a cylinder leakge test ?--not a compression test --
have you fitted plastic cam box covers to a j4 head?
that will show everything you need to know
perfect engine 2-4% leakage
anything over 15% will start to be a problem
running engine too cold will also not help as forged pistons are made with more clearance ,so they will always expand more than std cast type ,hence sometimes rattly or slight smoke when engine cold and it heals up as engine warms up
you could build an engine to run at 75 c ,but all clearances would need to be different

I am guessing you are not running an AFR gauge ,as you would have seen it over fuelling

running a w/b with gauge may seem like a waste of money but it gives you a check on whats happening and also allows you to check if the mapper got the fuellng right
the money for a w./b gauge would have saved you alot more money than it has and will cost you to fix the problem

blackie_2k5 · 20th July 2012, 13:10

Thank John, just the reply I needed

It's an 8valve so no just running Stock size cam breather with correct sized piping

I've not done a leakage test... iwill get on it, the oil I'm running was just temp for a few hundred miles so I could flush the system and put a new filter on, before putting some decent oil in

It's not forged, currently double h/g.. The oil seems pretty thin and the whole car stinks of fuel

I did have wide band but I decided I was selling up not long ago and it was one of the first things that went, not yet replaced it.. But I will be looking at an aem w/b kit ASAP

So I think my next plan is to get it booked in for a map ASAP and flush the oil and filters and bang some fresh plugs in

sam_16v · 20th July 2012, 13:12

Blackie are you using a decomp plate?

blackie_2k5 · 20th July 2012, 13:44

No not any more

Just been and checked the oil again.. It's like water after a short drive, do looks Like I've found my prob

Whether or not it's too late is a diff matter, see what happens after a map

KamRacing · 21st July 2012, 18:23

i've seen a few cars massively overfuel with poor quality aftermarket fuel regulators....
but when you get the car map that will flag up very quickly if its the case.

blackie_2k5 · 21st July 2012, 23:02

Not got after market reg on mate

It's basically as the map is so far out, the intitial map was done but I had a rather large hole in my boost pipe

I fixed that and It ran rich after 3-4k onwards

I also had a few other leaks, have since fixed these and now it's ridiculously out, just hoping its not too far gone

Ross^p · 22nd July 2012, 00:03

Prolonged bore wash :

blackie_2k5 · 22nd July 2012, 09:52

That your car Ross? I'm hoping it's ok as its only been smoking about 350 miles

Only doing short necessary journeys at the min.. Son fingers crossed

Ross^p · 22nd July 2012, 13:47

Yes mate was my car at one point!

This is it now mind you... machine honed, not hand "deglazed"...

axsaxoman · 23rd July 2012, 19:31

my guess is its too late --the rings will need changing at least and bores will need glaze busting + honed.
presuming of course the bores are still within tolerance to suit the pistons you have fitted.
I did the same thing on my race car --over 20years ago --running it in on the road ,light throttle cruise in the winter ,but i forgot that the water temp correction had not been set and it was running cold ,around 65c--,just 100 miles was enough to wreck the rings totally
i now alwaysset water temp correction to zero above 50c water temp.as its combustion temp not water temp thats important and tat gets up to temp alot quicker than water temp.
If you had been running your w/b ,ideally in closed loop with the ecu ,then it would have stopped that happening or at least you would have seen the over richness on the gauge ,

ROSS
i think the marks on the bore is actually a waterer mark from the engine being stopped for a long time and getting corroded between piton and bore where engine was stopped or after a h/gasket blow and being stood for sometime .
a cylinder leqakge test will show it all

blackie_2k5 · 23rd July 2012, 19:39

its just a standard lump with double head gasket so ill just fit another if its too far gone

not got the time at the min so ill get it mapped and see how it goes..if nothing else it last long enough to get another engine ready to drop

john...my car seems to idle quite high after its warmed up fully and you knock it then off, and start driving again..doesnt always do it..but generally if ive got it up to temp..got out, then back in..itll idle quite high untill its been driven a while..or even for the full length of a journey

think this is down to warm up enrichment? not seeing that its already up to temp? ive had two diff temp sensors in so i know its not the sensors...but possibly the enrichment or a fault with the ecu???

bigezz · 23rd July 2012, 21:58

to be fair your kind off asking for problems running that many miles on such a bad map and is it worth mapping a car with a posibly damaged bottom end to replace it and be in the exact same position you are now?

Ross^p · 24th July 2012, 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

ROSS
i think the marks on the bore is actually a waterer mark from the engine being stopped for a long time and getting corroded between piton and bore where engine was stopped or after a h/gasket blow and being stood for sometime .
a cylinder leqakge test will show it all

I was posting to show the mirror like finish on the bores. Not so worried about the marks, but the glaze is horrific!

blackie_2k5 · 24th July 2012, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigezz

to be fair your kind off asking for problems running that many miles on such a bad map and is it worth mapping a car with a posibly damaged bottom end to replace it and be in the exact same position you are now?

Not really..

I only have one car at the min, so I haven't other options, my mapper is busy

On good terms so the maps only cost me £80-130 dependant on how long it takes

If I pay the map and it's too far gone.. I'll have a very close map for the new engine, that will only need minor tweaks once it's fitted..

So if I have to wait a week or two before I can get the new engine map tweaked..then the new engine isn't going to suffer the same fate in the mean tine

axsaxoman · 24th July 2012, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossDagley

I was posting to show the mirror like finish on the bores. Not so worried about the marks, but the glaze is horrific!

Yes i understand thats why you posted it ,but i didn,t want people to think that mark on the bore was "bore wash"
your other picture is good showing how rough a proper hone looks to the eye

blackie_2k5 · 19th August 2012, 00:20

update time

thought id be helpful since no one follows up problem threads!

i dropped the oil..it stunk of fuel..which cemented the rings being cooked theory. So i changed the oil to thicker in the hope it would give me a few more weeks/month to sort the engine..it didnt lol

i bought a new dailly and pulled the engine out..after two weeks of no driving and moving it across the carpark i was greeted with this:

doesnt seem to be any major scoring but the rings are goosed..it was smoking like a locomotive when i last used it..block is totally ruined as well. There was no hint of wear 1k ago..now the block has a speed bump at TDC

so in short... mapping is essential

wide bands can save you alot of money..